Digital Disruption

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Hey everyone!

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I'm super excited to sit down

with Josh Browder, founder of

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Do Not Pay, the world's first AI lawyer.

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He's also an AI angel investor

and has worked with

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some of Silicon Valley's

leading venture capitalists.

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I'm not typically big

on profiling individual companies,

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but what's interesting about Josh

is that he uses AI to help people

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fight back against predatory and

exploitative practices by big companies.

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Think cable bills.

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Think parking tickets.

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Think canceling subscriptions.

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I want to ask him about the most predatory

behaviors.

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We need to be aware of how this landscape

is evolving, but most of all,

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how to save money and get money back.

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Let's find out.

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Josh, super excited to be talking to you

today.

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About really all of the good things

that I can do for people.

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And, you know,

there's a lot of conversation right now.

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There's this narrative about, you know,

big tech and all the ways that AI

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is sort of, you know, consolidating power

or it's helping big business.

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You have a little bit

of a different perspective

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about the potential of AI to help,

you know,

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the long tail of folks, you know, the

the every man or every woman here.

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You know,

maybe you can start by painting me

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a little bit of a picture

of some of the challenges

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or pains that that people are facing

in their daily lives,

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and the opportunity

that this technology brings.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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I've been exposed to this world

by accident.

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I've started my company, ten years ago.

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It's called Do not Pay.

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And it helps consumers

fight for their rights.

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I should mention it's

not only a company, it's a lifestyle

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about fighting against big companies

and governments.

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And I started the company by accident

because I got a large number of

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parking tickets.

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And I realized that,

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the government and these large companies

were really exploiting people.

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And it started with just templates.

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But now we're using a lot of true

AI to help people fight back.

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So, for example, we have robots, they

go into someone's utility bell account

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and they start negotiating someone's

cable bill down.

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And what's interesting is the big

companies are using AI and we're using AI.

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So sometimes it's an AI versus

AI negotiation.

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And I think this is,

a great example of the broader

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trend of AI can be used to help people,

and it can also be used,

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unfortunately, by these big companies,

to squeeze money out of people.

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And so we want to fight fire

with fire and fight back.

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That was exactly the phrase that came

to mind the fight fire with fire.

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Because it doesn't it doesn't necessarily

seem like a fair fight.

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And, certainly have been in a situation

where you feel like,

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oh, you're being exploited in some way,

or you just don't have the time or,

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you know, you

you end up paying for something

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just to make the problem go away.

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this is such a broad landscape of like,

any sort of interaction it could be with,

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you know, either

people and private businesses

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with the government,

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you know, in your mind, Josh,

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you said you've been doing this for

for ten years or so.

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What are some of the most sort

of compelling

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use cases for this that you really think

there's an opportunity to push back on?

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So, there's so many,

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more broadly, there's

so many areas of people's lives where,

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the big companies know

and there's this, there's this problem

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in society of concentrated benefit

and spread out harm.

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And what I mean by that is, Comcast

or any company

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like it can charge a million people, $10,

they make $10 million,

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but the people being charged

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$10 don't have the time

or the resources to fight back.

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And that's a great job for AI

because you don't have to pay AI.

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It doesn't have to sleep.

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It can, work very cheaply

and efficiently on behalf of consumers.

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And there's all sorts of rights and, rules

that people have that they didn't even

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that I don't have the time and the energy

or the knowledge to get back, money for.

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So I'll give you one concrete example,

which is perhaps my favorite

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do not pay feature,

which is called Robo Revenge.

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And there's this amazing law, in America,

it's called

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the Telephone Consumer Protection Act,

and it allows consumers

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to get up to $1,500

whenever they get a spam call.

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And this is an amazing rule.

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And, if everyone enforced this,

I don't think there would be any spam

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calls, but no one has the resources

to get that money.

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And one of the reasons people don't is

that when you get one of these spam calls,

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as I'm sure you can attest,

they give you fake names

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and fake numbers and they don't even say

where they're calling from.

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And we've built an AI trap

to fight these farm callers.

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And the way the trap works is it's say,

special do not pay credit card.

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It's not linked to the consumer

in any way.

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And when they phone you up

and try and sell you

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the crews with the spam call,

you can say, I'm very interested.

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Here's my do not pay

or you don't say, here's my do not buy.

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Here's my card number

and you give them this special card.

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And through the payment network,

I guess their business name, address,

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phone number.

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And then it generates the latter

automatically

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and sends it off to the right place

to get you that $1,500.

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So it's like a honey trap.

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And, we have users.

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It's they're no exaggeration.

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Their full time gig.

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Just getting money from robot callers.

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Whenever they get a sample,

there's even one guy he,

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bought a new house roof for his house

in new Jersey.

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He's made so much money, and I like is

I is empowering people to almost be their

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own regulator and own like vigilante

to fight back against all these problems.

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So I want to I want to dive

a little bit deeper into that,

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because it's really easy for us to fall

into the conversational trap of, you know,

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I as just this sort of broad umbrella.

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And, Josh,

you mentioned a little bit earlier

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that this started with templates

and it sort of evolved.

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So when you say AI

and talk about what I can do,

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you know, is this, you know, dynamic

template generation through generative

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AI, is it sort of having agents.

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What's what is it passive? Is it active?

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What does this actually look like in

practice for some of these, situations?

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Yeah. So the very first use case.

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So I'll use the excuse, I came from the UK

to study at Stanford, and the Americans

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drive on the other side of the road,

so I'll use that excuse.

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But really, I was a terrible driver.

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And so I was getting all of these

expensive

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parking tickets, and,

I couldn't afford to pay them.

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They're like $300 each.

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Very, very expensive.

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And so I became an accidental expert at

how to get out of tickets.

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And the way I did that is

I did a freedom of information request,

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in various cities.

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And I looked for the top reasons

why parking tickets were canceled.

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And so my initial version of do not pay,

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it would match you to one of those reasons

where the template

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put in all the details

and then send it off to the right place,

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and I didn't expect anyone to use it.

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I literally just sent it

to like ten of my friends. And

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one of them

wrote a blog post about her experience,

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and she's a very good writer, but usually

her blog posts maybe get like 500 views.

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In this case,

it went internationally viral.

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It went to the front page of Reddit,

and I went from ten people using

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it, 50,000 people, almost overnight.

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And the initial version of the site use,

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you choose a template and then,

it would send the latter,

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but all these 50,000 people using it,

they didn't know which template to click.

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And they didn't know that

I was like a college student behind this.

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They thought it was like some big company.

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And so they'd write in to support

with all these questions

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about which template to pick

and other problems they would have.

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And I actually even in 2016, 2017,

a few years in,

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I decided I want to make it,

wanted to make a chat bot.

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And the reason for that was,

I can have an open ended input so people

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could put in that reason why they were

unjustly treated by parking tickets.

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And then some of the other use cases

we had at the time,

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and then the software

would match you on the back end

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and so do not pay

was actually one of the first mass market

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consumer chat bots,

and it seemed crazy at the time.

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People, weren't really used

to interacting with the chat bot.

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Now people use chat bots every day

with ChatGPT,

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but it was very novel back then.

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So that was the kind of initial version.

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And over time

has become much more sophisticated

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and AI has helped to solve a very

key problem, which is that,

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what happens when the government

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or the companies respond

and you need to respond back?

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And, and parking

tickets is an asynchronous dispute.

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You submit it, it goes into a black box

and then it comes back.

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But most of the really exciting things

to get money for people are synchronous.

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Imagine you're chatting

with a Comcast chat bot,

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or you're chatting with an airline chat

bot to get a refund and things like that.

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And that's

why where I is incredibly useful,

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where you can respond instantly.

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So we've gone from helping people

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save $100 in parking tickets

to thousand dollar disputes with airlines.

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And we're even doing tens of thousand

dollar disputes with medical bills.

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And that's really helpful.

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And the big breakthrough

that we've made in the past six months is,

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about 2 or 3 years ago, we started doing

the synchronous disputes online.

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Now we're doing them

a bit over the phone as well.

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So AI is finally getting,

convincing enough that,

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we have phone robots phone up,

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and I've got all sorts of funny stories

around that, and helping people.

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And so Jeff

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Bezos has a great quote, which is consumer

expectations are constantly increasing.

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And, it's exciting.

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The technology is giving us all these

opportunities to build these products.

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But at the same time,

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people are expecting a lot more from us

than they did ten years ago, because now

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you could just ask ChatGPT to write you

a parking ticket, appear later.

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So what's what's the implication there

then for what you're doing?

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I mean, it sounds like your,

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you know, what you've been doing

has been, like, evolving pretty rapidly.

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You know,

how does the ChatGPT of it all, you know,

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fit into what you've been doing

and how people are using your services?

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I think I will lead

to a much more efficient world.

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There are a lot of big companies

that make huge revenue and profit

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just from, dark patterns

where they people know that

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they don't have the time to, or energy

to cancel or switch to a different plan.

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It's an open secret

that if you phone up a company and say,

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I'm thinking of canceling,

they're going to give you a discount

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and they should just give you

the discounts.

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Be nice to begin with.

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Because we're in a competitive market

and they have competitors, but they know

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there's so much friction and bureaucracy

that it takes time to switch.

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So the optimistic view is that I will lead

to a much more efficient world.

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And then there's also customer

service costs.

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If you buy a plane ticket,

about 10 to 20% of the cost of the plane

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ticket is actually going

towards customer service.

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And so I can even make things

more efficient on the big companies end.

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And in fact,

when so do not pay was launching city

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by essentially even with parking tickets

and NPR the radio station asked

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the head of the Los Angeles parking ticket

bureau what he thought about a service.

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I do not pay,

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and you would think

that they would hate it

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because it would take revenue

from the government. And they do.

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But he did have a positive spin on that,

which is people write such nonsense

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in their parking ticket appeal at us,

at least when it comes from a service like

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do Not Pay. It's

efficient and streamlined.

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And so I think even the companies

can benefit from an efficient world

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where they don't

have to jack up the prices by 10 to 20%

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because they're paying for all this

expensive customer service.

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Now, whether all of that benefit flows to

the consumer is probably unlikely, but,

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at least some of it, well. So so

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with that in

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mind, I'm curious, you know, I,

I love the optimistic view

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that everything is more efficient

and everybody has money in their pockets.

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So since you've been doing this,

have you seen

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any response

from some of these big organizations

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like is this enough of a risk to them

that they're starting to revamp

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some of their,

you know, their own processes

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so that, you know, they're either I proof

or they're making it more difficult to,

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you know, for people to use this either

synchronously or asynchronously.

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So we take a very humble view

to our product.

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We have, over 250,000 subscribers, which

is great for us as a very small team.

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And we, we've had a big impact

in those people's lives.

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But it's a drop in the bucket to the

increase and exploitation going out there.

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And, the biggest statistic I would say

is new York City alone make $1 billion

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a year just from ticket sales.

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And so we like to thank the we give

our customers almost an unfair advantage.

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And we take the view that not everyone

is going to be a customer

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if you're not paying.

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So those that use the AI tools

and more broadly,

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there's still a lot of people

who don't even know what ChatGPT is.

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If you can believe it.

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And so especially our customer

demographic.

00;13;15;10 - 00;13;19;05

And so, we, we would have to be like

00;13;19;05 - 00;13;23;07

100 x bigger to have companies

start changing their processes.

00;13;23;14 - 00;13;28;02

But I we'll give you one concrete example

where a company changed that process.

00;13;28;05 - 00;13;30;01

We have a, product.

00;13;30;01 - 00;13;32;01

It's called the free trial credit card.

00;13;32;01 - 00;13;35;23

And it uses AI to help people

with manage their subscriptions

00;13;35;23 - 00;13;39;07

and stop people

from getting sucked into all these things.

00;13;39;10 - 00;13;43;00

And one one aspect of the product

is, is a special credit card

00;13;43;06 - 00;13;45;10

that you can use for any free trial.

00;13;45;10 - 00;13;48;12

And,

gets you through the free trial thing

00;13;48;12 - 00;13;51;09

because it's not linked

to the consumer thing to do not pay.

00;13;51;09 - 00;13;55;11

But when the subscription comes

time to renew, it automatically cancels

00;13;55;11 - 00;13;56;17

the free trial.

00;13;56;17 - 00;13;59;27

And we, signing up

so many people for signing.

00;13;59;27 - 00;14;02;06

And that's the way it should be,

because most people,

00;14;02;06 - 00;14;04;11

they give that credit card details

and they forget

00;14;04;11 - 00;14;07;02

and they don't get any value,

and it just renews every month.

00;14;07;02 - 00;14;11;09

But we were signing up so many people

for so many free trials.

00;14;11;15 - 00;14;15;19

That a lot,

a lot of big companies, started off

00;14;15;22 - 00;14;18;07

ending their free trial program.

00;14;18;07 - 00;14;22;05

And actually, we were very humble,

but we actually like to take some credit

00;14;22;05 - 00;14;25;15

and actually Netflix ending

that free trial program because just

00;14;25;15 - 00;14;30;22

before they did, we were doing

so many Netflix free trials, it was crazy.

00;14;30;25 - 00;14;33;03

That it's interesting and

00;14;33;03 - 00;14;35;28

that's sort of a multifaceted one,

like I don't.

00;14;35;28 - 00;14;37;25

Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing?

00;14;37;25 - 00;14;39;09

I mean, it's certainly good that,

00;14;39;09 - 00;14;41;20

you know,

consumers are not being exploited anymore.

00;14;41;20 - 00;14;45;21

And I, I've encountered that plenty

of times in my life where it's just,

00;14;45;24 - 00;14;47;28

you know,

I signed up for like a sports channel

00;14;47;28 - 00;14;52;04

because I wanted to watch the, I wanted

to watch the World Series this year.

00;14;52;07 - 00;14;55;03

Toronto was in it, and I didn't have it.

00;14;55;03 - 00;14;56;26

And so I signed up for this package.

It was.

00;14;56;26 - 00;14;59;04

And, you know, the next thing I know,

I've forgotten them. Their.

00;14;59;04 - 00;15;00;23

You know, their billing the month

after month.

00;15;00;23 - 00;15;03;05

And it's just,

you know, I, I've forgotten to do that.

00;15;03;05 - 00;15;07;04

So I mean, it's interesting

and it's compelling and I wonder,

00;15;07;10 - 00;15;12;20

you know, to what degree people are going

to be reshaping these, these models.

00;15;12;23 - 00;15;13;06

Yeah.

00;15;13;06 - 00;15;16;03

And, we we definitely ruffled

some feathers.

00;15;16;03 - 00;15;20;09

We we send a lot of data

deletion requests,

00;15;20;09 - 00;15;24;14

so there's all these privacy laws

that allow people to stop data brokers

00;15;24;14 - 00;15;25;23

from selling their data.

00;15;25;23 - 00;15;29;17

And we send so many to one data broker

that they actually try

00;15;29;17 - 00;15;32;26

to, like, take legal action against us

because they were getting so much

00;15;32;26 - 00;15;33;14

do not pay.

00;15;33;14 - 00;15;36;00

So it's like David versus Goliath.

00;15;36;00 - 00;15;38;12

They're constantly

being squeezed on all ends.

00;15;38;12 - 00;15;42;11

But, we're typically more motivated

than the average big company,

00;15;42;17 - 00;15;44;13

executive or engineer.

00;15;44;13 - 00;15;48;07

So, being motivated takes you a long way.

00;15;48;10 - 00;15;50;12

Right now that's, that's awesome.

00;15;50;12 - 00;15;53;07

It's, it's a noble calling.

00;15;53;07 - 00;15;54;03

I wanted to come back

00;15;54;03 - 00;15;57;25

to, you know, one of the examples

you talked about, which is medical bills

00;15;57;28 - 00;16;01;02

and just just that these are one of the,

you know,

00;16;01;02 - 00;16;04;23

the bigger scope, you know, problems

that you solve for people.

00;16;04;29 - 00;16;09;26

Can you give me a little bit more flavor

in terms of what that looks like?

00;16;09;29 - 00;16;13;23

And I imagine that's mostly,

you know, in the US,

00;16;13;26 - 00;16;16;17

but, you know,

how much wiggle room is there?

00;16;16;17 - 00;16;19;11

What what are some of the predatory

tactics that you're seeing,

00;16;19;11 - 00;16;20;15

you know, insurance companies

00;16;20;15 - 00;16;24;16

or medical providers,

actually download on to their customers?

00;16;24;16 - 00;16;27;22

And how do you, you know, support them

saving money?

00;16;27;25 - 00;16;29;19

Yeah. So there's this amazing new law.

00;16;29;19 - 00;16;31;15

It's called the No Surprises Act.

00;16;31;15 - 00;16;33;20

And it allows you to allows consumers

00;16;33;20 - 00;16;36;27

a broad range of rights

to negotiate their medical bills.

00;16;37;00 - 00;16;40;22

And,

first of all, a lot of these hospitals

00;16;40;22 - 00;16;44;23

and providers are unfortunately run

by private equity firms.

00;16;44;26 - 00;16;48;29

And the second that anyone does

any sort of push back

00;16;48;29 - 00;16;52;03

with the bill, most people who get medical

bill will tell you about this.

00;16;52;03 - 00;16;53;17

They'll knock off 30%

00;16;53;17 - 00;16;57;24

just from the initial negotiation,

just as like a negotiation tactic.

00;16;58;00 - 00;17;03;21

And so I would advise all consumers,

through online service or just themselves,

00;17;03;25 - 00;17;07;27

to push back on any medical bill

they receive because, what we're saying

00;17;07;27 - 00;17;10;26

is a lot of big companies

will just reduce it almost immediately.

00;17;10;26 - 00;17;14;03

In terms of some of the more shady

tactics, there's something called up

00;17;14;03 - 00;17;15;05

coding.

00;17;15;05 - 00;17;18;14

Up coding is where the,

00;17;18;17 - 00;17;23;21

provider will say you had an like,

a full kind of arm examination,

00;17;23;21 - 00;17;24;19

but really, they just loved

00;17;24;19 - 00;17;28;05

your wrist and then it's triple

the price and things like that.

00;17;28;12 - 00;17;31;09

And then the final thing

I'll say is that the no surprises act

00;17;31;09 - 00;17;36;06

almost allows you to do comparison

shopping, between hospitals.

00;17;36;12 - 00;17;40;16

And if one hospital is charging

you three times the price for a procedure

00;17;40;19 - 00;17;43;25

that the hospital down

the street is charging you much less for,

00;17;44;01 - 00;17;45;03

you can dispute that.

00;17;45;03 - 00;17;49;11

And if the, provider disagrees, you

can actually go to an independent panel

00;17;49;11 - 00;17;50;22

to keep disputing it.

00;17;50;22 - 00;17;54;12

And, the big companies,

they don't have time for that once

00;17;54;12 - 00;17;58;04

you know your rights and you push back,

they typically are very amenable.

00;17;58;11 - 00;18;01;00

And, I, we like to joke internally.

00;18;01;00 - 00;18;03;14

It's actually sometimes easier

to get a big discount,

00;18;03;14 - 00;18;05;19

tens of thousands of dollars

on a medical bill than it is

00;18;05;19 - 00;18;09;13

to get out of parking tickets, because

these companies have so much margin

00;18;09;18 - 00;18;13;23

and they're they know that the slightest

negotiation, they'll take some off.

00;18;14;00 - 00;18;16;23

So that that's very exciting.

00;18;16;26 - 00;18;18;13

What it is.

00;18;18;13 - 00;18;22;13

And I'm you know, that it's exactly

where I wanted to go, Josh, which is,

00;18;22;16 - 00;18;25;16

you know, for the average person,

I mean, a parking, you know,

00;18;25;23 - 00;18;29;26

a parking ticket could be, you know, 50

or 100 bucks in terms of money.

00;18;29;26 - 00;18;32;25

Saved it, call it in 2026.

00;18;32;25 - 00;18;36;29

What what do you see as the biggest kind

of opportunities for the average person?

00;18;36;29 - 00;18;40;19

Or, you know, a few different scenarios

for the biggest opportunities for people

00;18;40;19 - 00;18;45;03

to to actually save the most money

from some of these practices.

00;18;45;06 - 00;18;49;11

I think the next area we're looking into

is property taxes.

00;18;49;17 - 00;18;51;27

Everyone hates property taxes.

00;18;51;27 - 00;18;55;24

And that that's even bigger

than medical bills.

00;18;55;27 - 00;18;59;25

In some instances, because everyone gets

set who owns a property every year.

00;18;59;28 - 00;19;04;26

And the way they do that, some of these

valuations are very, kind of dubious.

00;19;04;26 - 00;19;08;04

And it's a big money driver

and you just have to follow the money.

00;19;08;07 - 00;19;10;27

And, and so kind of automating property

00;19;10;27 - 00;19;16;17

tax disputes, is

probably our, next biggest,

00;19;16;20 - 00;19;18;03

area of focus.

00;19;18;03 - 00;19;20;28

I will say that where there's all sorts

00;19;20;28 - 00;19;24;08

of interesting technical challenges

that we're dealing with as well.

00;19;24;11 - 00;19;28;08

So these more advanced use cases

and I'm happy to go into that.

00;19;28;13 - 00;19;34;15

But like, even handling these phone

conversations, is very interesting.

00;19;34;18 - 00;19;36;24

I'd, I'd love to go into that either Yeah.

00;19;36;24 - 00;19;39;19

the advanced use cases

or just some of the technical challenges.

00;19;39;19 - 00;19;42;10

I guess for me, what's interesting,

Josh, is not just the technical

00;19;42;10 - 00;19;46;06

challenges, but some of the,

some of the technology that's out there

00;19;46;06 - 00;19;49;27

and the way that you're able to overcome

some of these challenges.

00;19;50;00 - 00;19;50;10

Yeah.

00;19;50;10 - 00;19;53;05

So with, with I, I do not pay.

00;19;53;05 - 00;19;54;25

That was really three waves.

00;19;54;25 - 00;19;59;02

So the first wave was when,

GPT two came out

00;19;59;02 - 00;20;02;13

and this was at actually before ChatGPT

by a few years.

00;20;02;19 - 00;20;07;02

And this allowed technology to have

a conversation and pass the Turing test.

00;20;07;02 - 00;20;11;05

And in a sense where you could connect,

that for businesses,

00;20;11;05 - 00;20;15;20

you could loop and open AI and then,

you could build your own bots.

00;20;15;23 - 00;20;19;06

And that was very helpful for us

for jumping through these hoops

00;20;19;06 - 00;20;23;19

that required a human like interaction,

like chatting with the New York Times

00;20;23;19 - 00;20;26;03

to cancel someone's subscription.

00;20;26;06 - 00;20;27;24

But the problem with that was it.

00;20;27;24 - 00;20;30;09

Well, didn't really reason very well.

00;20;30;09 - 00;20;31;11

It was very dumb.

00;20;31;11 - 00;20;37;04

If you remember early ChatGPT, you could

still kind of tell it was a robot.

00;20;37;07 - 00;20;41;09

And one example would be like the big

company would say, I'll give you $10 off.

00;20;41;09 - 00;20;45;28

And then the, robot powered by GPT

two would say, that, that that's fine.

00;20;45;28 - 00;20;46;23

I'll take it.

00;20;46;23 - 00;20;49;21

And we want it to do better

for our customers.

00;20;49;21 - 00;20;54;13

ChatGPT and GPT three and 3.5 and

four came out, and that was a step change.

00;20;54;13 - 00;20;56;09

So that was really the second wave.

00;20;56;09 - 00;20;58;03

And all of a sudden

00;20;58;03 - 00;21;01;28

these big companies were saying,

I'll knock off $10 off your bill.

00;21;02;01 - 00;21;04;18

Or more advanced use cases.

00;21;04;18 - 00;21;07;21

And the GPT said, no, I reject that.

00;21;07;21 - 00;21;10;20

I want to do $100 off

or I'll cancel right now.

00;21;10;24 - 00;21;16;03

And that's really what enabled these more

complicated use cases like medical bills.

00;21;16;06 - 00;21;18;07

But that was like a modality problem

00;21;18;07 - 00;21;23;25

where it was still over online chat

and it took about two seconds,

00;21;23;27 - 00;21;27;24

for all of the technologies

to kind of loop in together.

00;21;27;27 - 00;21;31;11

You have the, kind of processing of what

the company is saying,

00;21;31;11 - 00;21;32;19

and then your processing the response.

00;21;32;19 - 00;21;36;14

And it took about two seconds,

and this was good enough for online chat,

00;21;36;14 - 00;21;39;14

if you can imagine,

two seconds is a convincing amount of time

00;21;39;14 - 00;21;42;20

for a consumer to be typing frantically.

00;21;42;23 - 00;21;45;21

But it wasn't good enough for,

phone calls.

00;21;45;21 - 00;21;47;24

And everything really changed.

00;21;47;24 - 00;21;52;25

About a year ago,

when GPT four came out for two reasons.

00;21;52;28 - 00;21;55;24

Firstly, the latency, like the speed

it took for the AI

00;21;55;24 - 00;21;59;02

to respond, decreased by 80%.

00;21;59;05 - 00;22;04;10

And then also the cost of the models

decreased by 90%.

00;22;04;13 - 00;22;09;01

So now it's, it's like 90% cheaper

to operate the same thing.

00;22;09;01 - 00;22;13;15

And that allowed us

to, start doing these fun conversations.

00;22;13;18 - 00;22;14;10

And,

00;22;14;10 - 00;22;17;26

we've had big successes with the phone,

but we've also had interesting challenges.

00;22;17;26 - 00;22;20;18

And I'll give you one example.

00;22;20;21 - 00;22;21;10

About a few

00;22;21;10 - 00;22;24;11

months

ago, we were doing one of our first,

00;22;24;17 - 00;22;27;15

utility bell conversations over the phone,

00;22;27;15 - 00;22;30;28

and we instruct our

AI to never lie because,

00;22;30;29 - 00;22;35;19

we're, established business

with, liability purposes.

00;22;35;19 - 00;22;37;19

There has to be always truthful.

00;22;37;19 - 00;22;41;00

And so the

I phoned up this cell phone company

00;22;41;00 - 00;22;45;24

to negotiate someone's bell, and it said,

hello, I'm the assistant to so-and-so.

00;22;46;01 - 00;22;49;13

I'm calling to negotiate

the cell phone bill.

00;22;49;16 - 00;22;52;25

And it didn't say AI assistant,

but it said assistant

00;22;52;28 - 00;22;56;20

and the human agent on the other end,

said,

00;22;56;23 - 00;23;00;08

okay, I understand you're the assistant,

but what's your name?

00;23;00;11 - 00;23;05;06

And this was a big challenge for the AI

because it didn't have a name.

00;23;05;09 - 00;23;10;17

And so it was very confusing and it was

relying on its instructions to never lie.

00;23;10;22 - 00;23;12;19

And so I said, no, you don't understand.

00;23;12;19 - 00;23;13;18

I'm the assistant.

00;23;13;18 - 00;23;15;20

And this went back and forth

like three times.

00;23;15;20 - 00;23;17;21

The human agent said, no,

I understand you're the assistant,

00;23;17;21 - 00;23;18;22

but what's your name?

00;23;18;22 - 00;23;21;22

And went back and forth, back and forth.

00;23;21;25 - 00;23;25;19

And we were watching this in real time

because it was one of our test cases.

00;23;25;22 - 00;23;30;12

And the AI said, you can call me Alex.

00;23;30;15 - 00;23;32;14

And it came up with this on its own.

00;23;32;14 - 00;23;34;10

And so it wasn't technically a lie.

00;23;34;10 - 00;23;37;19

It was just an interesting way

of solving the problem.

00;23;37;22 - 00;23;41;19

And so I think the reasoning models

are getting very sophisticated at solving

00;23;41;19 - 00;23;45;20

all of these constraints where you want

to represent someone very efficiently,

00;23;45;20 - 00;23;48;26

but also you want to be truthful

and comply with all the laws.

00;23;48;29 - 00;23;51;25

And so those are the type

of problems we're seeing.

00;23;51;28 - 00;23;54;27

Yeah, it's it's interesting,

00;23;55;01 - 00;23;57;06

you know, from the perspective

of what you're doing with your not pay.

00;23;57;06 - 00;24;00;08

But it's also just interesting

to see what this technology is doing.

00;24;00;10 - 00;24;04;19

And, you know, some of the,

some of the logic going in there as well.

00;24;04;22 - 00;24;08;29

You mentioned that the next frontier

for you is property taxes.

00;24;08;29 - 00;24;11;28

And that's an interesting one because I

and I mean, it's a take away for me.

00;24;11;28 - 00;24;14;28

I never thought about property taxes

as something I could dispute,

00;24;15;05 - 00;24;17;24

but now I'm like,

maybe I can dispute property taxes.

00;24;17;24 - 00;24;18;16

but I'm curious.

00;24;18;16 - 00;24;22;05

Josh,

are there any other sort of wish list

00;24;22;08 - 00;24;26;18

dispute items that you would love

to be able to help customers with?

00;24;26;21 - 00;24;27;03

Yeah.

00;24;27;03 - 00;24;30;03

I tell my team and by the way,

the team is like the people who, like,

00;24;30;03 - 00;24;31;17

browse Reddit at 2 a.m.

00;24;31;17 - 00;24;33;10

looking to scale up their own hacks.

00;24;33;10 - 00;24;36;17

We as a broader product level, do not pay

00;24;36;17 - 00;24;40;01

is trying to go from, proactive usage.

00;24;40;01 - 00;24;44;26

So someone goes and has a parking ticket

or an airline dispute or a utility dispute

00;24;44;29 - 00;24;48;24

to kind of retroactive usage where,

00;24;48;27 - 00;24;51;23

you just wake up and do not pay,

so I solve you.

00;24;51;23 - 00;24;53;04

I saved you money.

00;24;53;04 - 00;24;56;06

I noticed there was an outage

while you were sleeping with the internet,

00;24;56;06 - 00;24;59;04

and I already

got you a $20 compensation for that.

00;24;59;04 - 00;25;02;18

And so even across our existing product

base,

00;25;02;24 - 00;25;06;12

this is kind of a year of just making

do not pay more passive,

00;25;06;15 - 00;25;09;16

almost like an insurance policy

about being ripped off

00;25;09;22 - 00;25;13;06

so that consumers don't

even have to go to us with these issues.

00;25;13;06 - 00;25;15;12

It just has all your information

00;25;15;12 - 00;25;18;07

and it kind of gets you

these refunds in the background.

00;25;18;07 - 00;25;23;01

We're trying to be

like a against the establishment.

00;25;23;04 - 00;25;25;13

The that that's really interesting to me.

00;25;25;13 - 00;25;30;20

And once you can crack that sort of

passive not where it's just like you.

00;25;30;23 - 00;25;33;22

It's not an assistant

that you necessarily have to,

00;25;33;27 - 00;25;36;14

you know, prompt

every time you want them to do something.

00;25;36;14 - 00;25;40;04

But they're, you know, out doing that,

that that seems like a big,

00;25;40;11 - 00;25;43;07

very exciting frontier. Is that like

00;25;43;10 - 00;25;45;29

when you think about that, Josh?

00;25;45;29 - 00;25;47;28

Like, how

00;25;47;28 - 00;25;51;17

is that something that you think

you'll be able to see in 2026, 2027,

00;25;51;17 - 00;25;54;27

or is that like,

you know, dream territory?

00;25;55;00 - 00;25;58;09

Well, it's

kind of like Tesla full self-driving.

00;25;58;15 - 00;26;03;13

It's there's some aspects are available

today and and some that come soon.

00;26;03;16 - 00;26;06;21

One aspect that's available today

that I recommend

00;26;06;23 - 00;26;11;15

everyone does is,

there's a concept called unclaimed money.

00;26;11;21 - 00;26;15;06

So if consumers move address,

00;26;15;09 - 00;26;18;00

sometimes that owed a refund

because they overpaid that car

00;26;18;00 - 00;26;20;06

payment or utility bill payment.

00;26;20;06 - 00;26;23;00

And so you would think that the companies

have to track you down

00;26;23;00 - 00;26;26;02

to send you that money,

but eventually they send you the checks

00;26;26;02 - 00;26;29;01

and then it goes to your old address

and so it doesn't get opened.

00;26;29;07 - 00;26;31;25

And so they send that money

to the state governments.

00;26;31;25 - 00;26;36;04

And so there's about $20 billion

just waiting for consumers to be claimed,

00;26;36;10 - 00;26;41;19

in various databases that they're owed,

tax refunds is another one.

00;26;41;25 - 00;26;44;10

And so we built a products

that the consumer

00;26;44;10 - 00;26;48;04

gives their name and date of birth,

and it constantly checks these databases.

00;26;48;04 - 00;26;51;17

And that exists today

and actually found me some money.

00;26;51;21 - 00;26;55;21

I was owed $150 by Chase

because when I was at Stanford,

00;26;55;21 - 00;26;57;24

I overpaid one of my car payments.

00;26;57;24 - 00;27;03;17

And so, that's just one example of

of creative ways.

00;27;03;20 - 00;27;06;10

And it's really unfair

that governments are just holding

00;27;06;10 - 00;27;07;10

this huge amount of money.

00;27;07;10 - 00;27;11;06

In fact, 1 in 7 Americans,

have this unclaimed money,

00;27;11;13 - 00;27;16;09

and I can go and find it today for people.

00;27;16;12 - 00;27;18;07

That's yeah, that's awesome.

00;27;18;07 - 00;27;22;06

And, yeah, I again, it's so much of

it seems to be coming back

00;27;22;06 - 00;27;23;27

to just putting money

back in people's pockets,

00;27;23;27 - 00;27;26;29

which is you know,

really tough to argue with and feels

00;27;26;29 - 00;27;29;29

like sort of a no brainer.

00;27;30;03 - 00;27;33;26

I'm curious about potential industry

disruption,

00;27;33;26 - 00;27;37;28

you see, coming from

this use case, from AI in general,

00;27;38;01 - 00;27;40;25

one of the areas that sort of abuts

what you're doing here

00;27;40;25 - 00;27;43;23

is just the legal industry

and the use of lawyers.

00;27;43;23 - 00;27;46;15

And so I wanted to maybe ask you,

00;27;46;15 - 00;27;50;16

when do you think about the impact

right now on let's start with legal.

00;27;50;16 - 00;27;53;16

And we can kind of,

you know, branch out from there.

00;27;53;20 - 00;27;58;22

A lot of these new tools and tactics

that people are using here with AI.

00;27;58;25 - 00;27;59;16

Do you see it

00;27;59;16 - 00;28;04;02

replacing traditional lawyers,

traditional engagements with law firms?

00;28;04;05 - 00;28;07;11

Is it just opening up a pocket of,

00;28;07;17 - 00;28;11;12

you know, value that wasn't

previously accessible to people?

00;28;11;15 - 00;28;15;08

How do you see the space changing?

00;28;15;11 - 00;28;16;17

So do

00;28;16;17 - 00;28;19;17

not pay my my thoughts on

this have really shifted.

00;28;19;22 - 00;28;24;23

When I started,

I was like a, overly optimistic,

00;28;24;28 - 00;28;29;16

like, college student, and I thought that

I would replace all lawyers.

00;28;29;22 - 00;28;32;21

And I think maybe one day it will.

00;28;32;21 - 00;28;35;27

I do believe in kind of these advanced

AI systems

00;28;35;27 - 00;28;38;27

and AGI for, professional work.

00;28;39;00 - 00;28;43;22

But in terms of what do not pay is doing,

it's really an underserved area.

00;28;43;28 - 00;28;46;23

There's,

no lawyer who's going to get out of that

00;28;46;23 - 00;28;51;11

to help someone with the $20

Comcast refund and do not pay a Spanish.

00;28;51;11 - 00;28;53;16

Ironically,

we spend a huge amount of money

00;28;53;16 - 00;28;57;27

on real lawyers for compliance to comply

with all these state bar regulations

00;28;57;27 - 00;29;01;20

and all these disclaimers

that I is not a lawyer and all this stuff.

00;29;01;23 - 00;29;04;02

And that's really important for us.

00;29;04;02 - 00;29;07;09

And I think we've reached a good balance

now where we're just helping

00;29;07;09 - 00;29;10;06

being a consumer advocate.

00;29;10;09 - 00;29;13;01

The lawyers are unfortunately,

the people who write the rules.

00;29;13;01 - 00;29;16;21

And so they will ironically,

be the last people to be replaced.

00;29;16;25 - 00;29;20;25

Interestingly, I think software engineers

will be the first to be replaced,

00;29;20;25 - 00;29;25;24

even though they were the ones who

created this, AI wave in the first place.

00;29;25;27 - 00;29;27;05

I joke with my friends

00;29;27;05 - 00;29;30;24

that I left college at the absolute

peak of the computer science industry.

00;29;30;29 - 00;29;33;02

It was only downhill from that.

00;29;33;02 - 00;29;37;10

There are a lot of interesting companies

in the space as like Harvey,

00;29;37;10 - 00;29;41;20

which is helping lawyers

become more efficient, and others.

00;29;41;23 - 00;29;45;15

But really, these are just tools

for lawyers to save the lawyers money.

00;29;45;18 - 00;29;49;24

There hasn't been a kind of AI law firm

because of all of this regulation,

00;29;49;29 - 00;29;54;04

or at least one

that's been widely mass market successful.

00;29;54;07 - 00;29;57;07

So let's let's pivot

then maybe to, you know, cops, AI

00;29;57;07 - 00;30;01;05

and software development,

which, you flagged as kind of an area,

00;30;01;05 - 00;30;02;16

you know, ripe for disruption.

00;30;02;16 - 00;30;05;15

And, you know, it's interesting

given your background there.

00;30;05;15 - 00;30;10;09

Can you tell me a little bit more

about that perspective and how it's

00;30;10;12 - 00;30;13;29

how it's impacted you

as someone who is doing

00;30;13;29 - 00;30;19;10

some version of software development

professionally with this with Do Not Pay.

00;30;19;13 - 00;30;22;08

So, at the beginning of the call,

I mentioned

00;30;22;08 - 00;30;24;00

that do not pay as a lifestyle.

00;30;24;00 - 00;30;27;28

And in addition to being a company

and we really take the do not pay approach

00;30;27;28 - 00;30;30;03

even to our own internal operations.

00;30;30;03 - 00;30;32;27

And, AI has really helped us with that.

00;30;32;27 - 00;30;37;13

We're only a team of 14 people and we're

servicing this huge subscriber base,

00;30;37;13 - 00;30;40;16

and we try and be in a very efficient

and profitable business.

00;30;40;21 - 00;30;44;05

And we're actually, one of the first

VC backed companies to pay dividends.

00;30;44;12 - 00;30;46;12

And AI has allowed us to do that.

00;30;46;12 - 00;30;49;11

And the way it works is,

00;30;49;11 - 00;30;52;02

it's like integrated

throughout our customer support

00;30;52;02 - 00;30;55;02

and product development,

kind of life cycles.

00;30;55;06 - 00;31;00;04

So, for example,

someone, emails customer support

00;31;00;07 - 00;31;03;26

and they say, I had this bug problem

and we're actually

00;31;03;26 - 00;31;09;06

we actually have an AI that, monitors

all usage from all customers

00;31;09;06 - 00;31;14;14

and can link it to the customer support

ticket, figure out the issue and summarize

00;31;14;14 - 00;31;18;26

it without us having to spend an hour

figuring out what the actual back is.

00;31;18;29 - 00;31;22;04

Then we use, like many, company's clawed

00;31;22;04 - 00;31;27;19

code to actually, get the solution

much more quickly and probably replaces

00;31;27;19 - 00;31;31;09

like three times the amount of engineers

the one engineer can do.

00;31;31;12 - 00;31;34;24

And so automating customer support

and actually,

00;31;34;29 - 00;31;39;02

like fixing of bugs

has been incredibly helpful for us.

00;31;39;02 - 00;31;42;08

And it's allowed us to kind of

stay on top of this huge customer base.

00;31;42;15 - 00;31;45;22

And like someone writes to us

and say and says, unfortunately,

00;31;45;22 - 00;31;48;22

I lost my parking ticket, disappear

or something like that.

00;31;48;28 - 00;31;52;06

The AI is pre drafted response

and one click

00;31;52;09 - 00;31;55;05

send the response

and automate with the billing systems.

00;31;55;05 - 00;31;56;10

Get them a refund.

00;31;56;10 - 00;31;59;10

And so it's even making us

a lot more efficient as a company

00;31;59;10 - 00;32;02;03

and allowing us to be very elite.

00;32;02;06 - 00;32;02;21

Right.

00;32;02;21 - 00;32;05;05

So so it's it's an efficiency

play in your mind.

00;32;05;05 - 00;32;08;13

It's it's helping developers

do even more or helping the customers do

00;32;08;13 - 00;32;14;09

even more versus like a wholesale

replacement of the industry.

00;32;14;12 - 00;32;14;24

Yeah.

00;32;14;24 - 00;32;19;00

And everyone always asks me what what

what do I think about the future of jobs

00;32;19;03 - 00;32;20;24

and with AI?

00;32;20;24 - 00;32;25;20

And I'm very, very optimistic about this

because the job that I'm doing today

00;32;25;23 - 00;32;27;16

didn't exist ten years ago.

00;32;27;16 - 00;32;33;03

Not not nothing that do not pay

is built on even existed ten years ago.

00;32;33;03 - 00;32;38;19

Even a customer acquisition strategy

we get 95% of at plus of our customers

00;32;38;19 - 00;32;41;22

from referrals from Google search

00;32;41;22 - 00;32;45;08

and increasingly ChatGPT even

00;32;45;15 - 00;32;49;16

and 20 years ago,

or 25 years ago, that didn't even exist.

00;32;49;22 - 00;32;53;22

And so, AI is constantly

creating new opportunities for people.

00;32;53;25 - 00;32;56;26

And actually, I'm an angel investor

in some companies.

00;32;56;26 - 00;32;59;15

I'm trying to pay forward

my entrepreneurial journey.

00;32;59;15 - 00;33;02;17

And there's one company I'm

an angel investor and call Micro One.

00;33;02;19 - 00;33;06;16

And, they pay people to train AI models,

00;33;06;21 - 00;33;10;18

and there are people making $500 an hour

teaching AI what to do.

00;33;10;21 - 00;33;15;03

And, that that was a recent article

that this industry alone

00;33;15;09 - 00;33;19;06

is projected to be a $1 trillion industry

over the next few years, a brand

00;33;19;06 - 00;33;24;08

new industry of training AI,

and the world is constantly changing.

00;33;24;08 - 00;33;26;18

And as humans, our experience is unique.

00;33;26;18 - 00;33;28;03

And so this is not going to go away.

00;33;28;03 - 00;33;32;07

A lot of people say, well, once the

AI is trained, then that will be done.

00;33;32;07 - 00;33;33;22

But the world is constantly changing

00;33;33;22 - 00;33;36;23

and training changing,

so you're constantly going to be, needing

00;33;36;23 - 00;33;40;11

people to update the

AI so that maybe that will be our job.

00;33;40;16 - 00;33;44;06

And also doing fake a fake economy

with Nvidia against the

00;33;44;07 - 00;33;45;24

that's a whole separate issue.

00;33;45;24 - 00;33;49;29

So how does the how does the training

API's work, the getting paid for it?

00;33;49;29 - 00;33;50;22

Because that

00;33;50;22 - 00;33;52;23

I mean, if you told me that

and I didn't know

00;33;52;23 - 00;33;55;29

you were anything about you, like that

sounds an awful lot like a scam to me of,

00;33;56;00 - 00;33;59;23

you know, make $500 an hour

from your home, you know, training AI.

00;33;59;23 - 00;34;02;00

What? What does that look like?

00;34;02;00 - 00;34;06;07

No, it's it's a it's a big industry

that is multi-billion dollar companies.

00;34;06;07 - 00;34;11;01

That the best one known one is a company

called scale which meta acquired.

00;34;11;04 - 00;34;14;12

$28 billion valuation

00;34;14;15 - 00;34;19;15

and that the training of AI models has

really evolved over the past few years.

00;34;19;15 - 00;34;23;02

So it started out with telling AI

this is a traffic cone.

00;34;23;02 - 00;34;26;20

And actually the self-driving companies

were the first customers of training AI.

00;34;26;23 - 00;34;31;01

Because you had to tell the AI this is

a traffic cone, this is a stop sign.

00;34;31;03 - 00;34;32;03

Things like that.

00;34;32;03 - 00;34;36;20

Now it's getting much more sophisticated,

where if you're an English professor

00;34;36;20 - 00;34;39;20

or a nuclear engineering professor

00;34;39;22 - 00;34;42;18

or, an expert, a law, even,

00;34;42;18 - 00;34;48;04

you need to reinforce

and refine the AI model to make it better.

00;34;48;04 - 00;34;51;04

And that's how that's why ChatGPT and,

00;34;51;04 - 00;34;54;07

anthropic Claude are getting better.

00;34;54;07 - 00;34;55;22

It's because they're hiring

00;34;55;22 - 00;34;59;27

millions of people,

literally to to to train these AI models.

00;34;59;27 - 00;35;04;19

And there's companies, the, infrastructure

providers that that provide to them.

00;35;04;22 - 00;35;08;09

And so that is a very,

very much a growing industry.

00;35;08;09 - 00;35;11;28

And a lot of people

are working in this field.

00;35;12;01 - 00;35;14;04

On it sounds

like, if I'm understanding correctly,

00;35;14;04 - 00;35;18;03

that the price tag is a result of like,

00;35;18;03 - 00;35;21;02

like you're paying for the expertise

that specific people have, right?

00;35;21;02 - 00;35;24;20

Like, it's not like you're going

to quit your job flipping burgers to train

00;35;24;27 - 00;35;26;21

AI that anybody can do this.

00;35;26;21 - 00;35;29;21

It's access to very specialized knowledge.

00;35;29;24 - 00;35;31;11

Is that right or no?

00;35;31;11 - 00;35;31;19

Yeah.

00;35;31;19 - 00;35;35;05

Well, the most exciting thing about this

is that the AI companies

00;35;35;05 - 00;35;36;08

have so much money,

00;35;36;08 - 00;35;39;29

like OpenAI, that I think

is now valued at close to 800 billion.

00;35;40;06 - 00;35;43;18

They want to make their

AI model good at everything.

00;35;43;22 - 00;35;48;08

And so if even if you're good

at the piano, Derek, AI companies

00;35;48;09 - 00;35;52;06

now paying you to record a video of you,

playing the piano

00;35;52;12 - 00;35;56;21

and actually the, the the most important

example I would say is folding laundry.

00;35;56;21 - 00;35;58;09

That's the big one right now.

00;35;58;09 - 00;36;02;04

You would think billions of humans

have done it over the past,

00;36;02;07 - 00;36;05;23

centuries folding laundry,

but there aren't actually

00;36;05;23 - 00;36;09;07

that many high quality videos of people

folding laundry.

00;36;09;13 - 00;36;12;13

So AI companies maybe not $500 an hour

00;36;12;13 - 00;36;15;13

for the laundry example,

but certainly $60 an hour.

00;36;15;16 - 00;36;19;19

I know of a real example of an AI company

paying people $60

00;36;19;19 - 00;36;23;15

an hour to fold laundry,

where the camera very zoomed in so that,

00;36;23;18 - 00;36;26;22

AI robots can one day do our laundry.

00;36;26;29 - 00;36;30;02

And I will say

2026 will be the year of robotics.

00;36;30;08 - 00;36;34;15

So the previous year was about,

online intelligence, but now I think it's

00;36;34;15 - 00;36;36;19

moving to the real world.

00;36;36;22 - 00;36;40;02

Wow. So so from your perspective,

00;36;40;05 - 00;36;43;04

you know, basically anybody who's,

you know, looking for work or

00;36;43;04 - 00;36;48;16

looking for or, you know, is potentially

in a low skill role, you see is value.

00;36;48;16 - 00;36;49;12

You see there's value.

00;36;49;12 - 00;36;50;23

And at least exploring

00;36;50;23 - 00;36;54;22

training AI is an income stream

or is that too broad a statement?

00;36;54;25 - 00;36;56;03

Know that that's and there's

00;36;56;03 - 00;36;59;17

thousands of jobs listed online

where someone can sign up.

00;36;59;20 - 00;37;01;05

And,

00;37;01;05 - 00;37;03;22

this is actually probably

one of the biggest employers

00;37;03;22 - 00;37;05;25

in some developing countries

like the Philippines

00;37;05;25 - 00;37;09;16

as well, where people are making triple

the minimum wage.

00;37;09;19 - 00;37;12;19

Training these AI models.

00;37;12;26 - 00;37;13;20

that's interesting to me.

00;37;13;20 - 00;37;17;20

And I mean, I guess it can't go

on forever, but if I if I think about it

00;37;17;23 - 00;37;20;26

in terms of its sort of logical extremes,

I mean, it's interesting to me

00;37;20;26 - 00;37;25;07

because it's

it has an opportunity to really disrupt

00;37;25;07 - 00;37;28;07

a lot of traditional industries,

at least in the short term.

00;37;28;11 - 00;37;32;15

If it's creating like a flight

from what people are doing now

00;37;32;18 - 00;37;35;25

to, you know, there's

basically this glut of

00;37;35;28 - 00;37;39;08

of capital in AI right now

and just bringing all these people

00;37;39;14 - 00;37;45;03

to do this lucrative,

you know, low, low skill task.

00;37;45;06 - 00;37;45;16

Yeah.

00;37;45;16 - 00;37;50;01

And I think understanding how the AI

models work is, is why I'm so optimistic.

00;37;50;01 - 00;37;54;07

So the way ChatGPT is trained

is they it's

00;37;54;07 - 00;37;57;21

just a statistical model that predicts

what's the next thing to come.

00;37;57;21 - 00;37;59;05

What's the next word to come?

00;37;59;05 - 00;38;00;28

If you ask it a question

00;38;00;28 - 00;38;04;19

and the way they've trained it is

they've taken every book, every TV show,

00;38;04;26 - 00;38;09;19

every online website that they have access

to through copyright,

00;38;09;22 - 00;38;11;28

that I legally have access to,

I should say,

00;38;11;28 - 00;38;14;21

and they feed it into this model.

00;38;14;21 - 00;38;20;00

The problem is that humans, the AI,

is almost a reflection on ourselves.

00;38;20;03 - 00;38;25;14

And, not all of human history is good,

and not all of online content is good.

00;38;25;18 - 00;38;28;19

And so the AI is like this monster

that has to be contained,

00;38;28;24 - 00;38;33;03

and you have to say, oh, well,

this is actually not correct history.

00;38;33;03 - 00;38;35;00

This is actually a conspiracy theory.

00;38;35;00 - 00;38;37;25

And that's why everyone has to go in.

00;38;37;25 - 00;38;41;20

And all these days of training,

people have to go in and clean it up.

00;38;41;23 - 00;38;42;03

Yeah.

00;38;42;03 - 00;38;44;02

Well, and that's

00;38;44;02 - 00;38;45;10

that's a big job.

00;38;45;10 - 00;38;47;10

And it's a contentious one. Right.

00;38;47;10 - 00;38;52;09

Like being able to answer what is true,

what is good I don't know.

00;38;52;09 - 00;38;54;25

That's like

I don't know the best way to do that.

00;38;54;25 - 00;38;59;17

I wish I did, but it feels like that's

more contentious than ever these days.

00;38;59;20 - 00;38;59;29

Yeah.

00;38;59;29 - 00;39;04;04

Well, some things are non-controversial,

like just the right way to fold

00;39;04;04 - 00;39;08;25

the laundry is good, but,

definitely on the content moderation side.

00;39;08;25 - 00;39;12;02

And I wouldn't want to have that job of

of all of that stuff.

00;39;12;08 - 00;39;14;09

Yeah. Yeah.

00;39;14;09 - 00;39;18;15

So so I'm I'm curious, Josh coming back

to, to do not pay.

00;39;18;15 - 00;39;21;16

So, you know, it's interesting to me

because the, you know, that

00;39;21;16 - 00;39;25;15

the spirit behind it is sort of,

you know, very anti-big business in a way,

00;39;25;15 - 00;39;29;07

which is, you know, which is,

you know, all well and good.

00;39;29;10 - 00;39;32;03

It's interesting to me

because I feel like, you know,

00;39;32;03 - 00;39;37;04

you've been able to attract some really

big individual and institutional investors

00;39;37;07 - 00;39;40;21

to, to do not pay, you know,

whether it's the Andreessen

00;39;40;21 - 00;39;46;04

Horowitz's of the world or Greylock or,

you know, Peter Thiel or executives from,

00;39;46;06 - 00;39;50;14

you know, places like Adobe or Coinbase,

what do investors see in this?

00;39;50;14 - 00;39;51;09

And do they see it

00;39;51;09 - 00;39;55;00

in any way as sort of a threat

to what they're doing, or what attracts

00;39;55;03 - 00;40;04;08

some of the bigger names or deeper, deeper

pocketed folks to a tool like this?

00;40;04;11 - 00;40;04;29

I think

00;40;04;29 - 00;40;07;28

it's I think

venture capital is incredibly useful.

00;40;08;00 - 00;40;11;00

When I, was thinking of starting

do not pay.

00;40;11;02 - 00;40;12;20

I was really.

00;40;12;20 - 00;40;15;01

I'm just like, a anti-authority warrior.

00;40;15;01 - 00;40;18;01

And so I was even considering it,

making it a nonprofit.

00;40;18;02 - 00;40;22;00

And I had a pivotal breakfast,

with Marc Andreessen,

00;40;22;00 - 00;40;23;27

the founder of Andreessen Horowitz.

00;40;23;27 - 00;40;26;07

And he really convinced me

to make it a company.

00;40;26;07 - 00;40;29;29

And and the reason he convinced me

is because the biggest organizations,

00;40;30;06 - 00;40;33;05

that we see are typically for profit

00;40;33;05 - 00;40;36;15

companies,

because you can just have a bigger impact.

00;40;36;15 - 00;40;38;27

I guess that's just how the system works.

00;40;38;27 - 00;40;43;01

And I think venture capital plays

a really important part of that system.

00;40;43;08 - 00;40;47;25

And actually, Andreessen

Horowitz just came out, really recently,

00;40;47;28 - 00;40;52;08

with their latest fund,

and the, the motto of their latest

00;40;52;08 - 00;40;56;01

fund is, everyone in a fast society,

everyone deserves a chance

00;40;56;01 - 00;40;59;07

to build something big,

regardless of their background.

00;40;59;10 - 00;41;02;26

And, that's really the opportunities

that they give.

00;41;02;29 - 00;41;07;18

With that said that I think it's really

important to align the venture capital.

00;41;07;23 - 00;41;11;13

So venture capital is a lot

like I have to kind of contain it.

00;41;11;16 - 00;41;13;28

And, I do not pay.

00;41;13;28 - 00;41;16;21

We've been very frugal

and very responsible.

00;41;16;21 - 00;41;18;14

I maybe it's because I'm from the UK,

00;41;18;14 - 00;41;21;20

but we're not like one

of these bubble companies.

00;41;21;23 - 00;41;22;15

And so we tried

00;41;22;15 - 00;41;25;15

not to raise too much

and that really helped us a lot.

00;41;25;15 - 00;41;28;16

And so it's given us

control of the company still.

00;41;28;22 - 00;41;32;20

And we, we don't have outsized

expectations and we can run it,

00;41;32;27 - 00;41;36;15

like working for our customers

and building an efficient business.

00;41;36;18 - 00;41;39;25

Because you see, some companies,

they raise hundreds of millions of dollars

00;41;39;25 - 00;41;42;11

or even billions of dollars,

and then they shut down.

00;41;42;11 - 00;41;44;08

And I've been doing this for ten years.

00;41;44;08 - 00;41;47;19

And I tell every candidate

who joins, do not pay,

00;41;47;19 - 00;41;51;03

on the employee side, like

we're going to be around in 100 years.

00;41;51;09 - 00;41;55;03

We really believe in sustainability,

so you've got to not.

00;41;55;06 - 00;41;58;02

It's a useful tool

when used in moderation.

00;41;58;02 - 00;42;00;11

Just like with most things in life.

00;42;00;11 - 00;42;00;21

Yeah.

00;42;00;21 - 00;42;02;05

No, I, I love that mentality.

00;42;02;05 - 00;42;04;24

It it absolutely resonates with me.

00;42;04;24 - 00;42;08;13

I'm curious, do you spend any time being

kept up at night by,

00;42;08;19 - 00;42;11;14

you know, either

like a Google or an Apple or some,

00;42;11;14 - 00;42;15;01

you know, one of these kind of device

providers and platform providers

00;42;15;01 - 00;42;17;01

just saying, wow,

this is such a good idea.

00;42;17;01 - 00;42;23;16

We're going to try and make our own

and make it into our platform.

00;42;23;19 - 00;42;27;00

So there are some things that do not pay

does,

00;42;27;06 - 00;42;32;13

whereas more just pure assistant

based like a few years ago,

00;42;32;13 - 00;42;35;24

we help people automatically

get appointments from the DMV,

00;42;35;27 - 00;42;40;21

and I think that assistant based tasks

will ultimately just be rolled in

00;42;40;21 - 00;42;46;13

to Alexa or Siri, or any of the AI tools,

or perhaps even ChatGPT.

00;42;46;16 - 00;42;49;10

So we constantly have to be on our A-game

00;42;49;10 - 00;42;52;10

to build unique products

that aren't available elsewhere.

00;42;52;17 - 00;42;55;10

On the other hand, we really about

00;42;55;10 - 00;42;58;17

biting the hand

that feeds a lot of these companies.

00;42;58;17 - 00;43;02;05

In fact, Comcast is one of Google's

biggest advertisers.

00;43;02;08 - 00;43;04;29

So do I think that Google

is going to build

00;43;04;29 - 00;43;08;10

an antagonist, a robot that helps people

fight Comcast?

00;43;08;13 - 00;43;09;21

Probably not.

00;43;09;21 - 00;43;10;27

And actually,

00;43;10;27 - 00;43;14;28

when a lot of these companies, built

these products, it's integration based.

00;43;15;02 - 00;43;19;20

So ChatGPT has an integration is called

GPT s where companies like

00;43;19;20 - 00;43;23;21

Do Not Pay or even Comcast's of the world

or United Airlines or others

00;43;23;26 - 00;43;27;26

can build things on top of these,

these platforms.

00;43;27;29 - 00;43;31;20

And is Planet Fitness

going to build an AI

00;43;31;20 - 00;43;35;09

tool on top of ChatGPT to help members

cancel their own subscriptions?

00;43;35;14 - 00;43;36;19

Definitely not.

00;43;36;19 - 00;43;40;09

And so I think that there's

an antagonistic angle that we take

00;43;40;15 - 00;43;44;02

that, few people are going to do.

00;43;44;05 - 00;43;48;02

And then the last thing I'll say

is that the largest companies like

00;43;48;02 - 00;43;52;06

Google are very, working on building

robots to have in the household

00;43;52;06 - 00;43;57;19

and self-driving cars and the latest

AI models, this is almost beneath them.

00;43;57;22 - 00;44;03;07

And so that's why there's a unique role

for a company like to not pay.

00;44;03;10 - 00;44;04;15

That that makes sense.

00;44;04;15 - 00;44;08;16

It's interesting and I yeah,

I love this sort of,

00;44;08;19 - 00;44;12;06

you know, subversive,

antagonistic view of it.

00;44;12;06 - 00;44;13;08

I, I totally get it.

00;44;13;08 - 00;44;18;19

And I get the argument about why some

bigger organizations may not be into that.

00;44;18;22 - 00;44;21;21

I'm curious, do you have, you know, from,

from your ten years doing this, do

00;44;21;21 - 00;44;26;13

you have sort of a one or a few favorite

stories of people saving money?

00;44;26;13 - 00;44;30;07

I've just like whether it was surprising

or it was a large amount of money or

00;44;30;07 - 00;44;34;22

just like something that was sort of eye

opening in terms of you didn't expect it,

00;44;34;22 - 00;44;40;13

but had just like a really good feeling

about how the tool was used.

00;44;40;16 - 00;44;40;25

Yeah.

00;44;40;25 - 00;44;42;27

We see some some crazy stuff.

00;44;42;27 - 00;44;47;28

That there was,

there was one, one dispute where,

00;44;48;01 - 00;44;51;01

a consumer was

trying to get their security deposit back.

00;44;51;06 - 00;44;54;00

And the consumer told

00;44;54;00 - 00;44;59;00

the AI, my landlord,

logged in to my tax refund site

00;44;59;03 - 00;45;03;10

and said, you have so much money,

you don't need the deposit back.

00;45;03;13 - 00;45;06;27

This is a crazy story

and that there's a few problems with that.

00;45;06;27 - 00;45;09;08

Firstly,

there's all these rights that people have,

00;45;09;08 - 00;45;11;08

and if the landlord doesn't

give you the deposit back,

00;45;11;08 - 00;45;13;09

you can get three times

the amount of money.

00;45;13;09 - 00;45;17;26

But even beyond that,

the landlord, like, logged in to the

00;45;17;26 - 00;45;18;09

with the,

00;45;18;09 - 00;45;22;08

with the rental application, I guess you

had like a lot of Social Security details

00;45;22;08 - 00;45;22;29

and things like that.

00;45;22;29 - 00;45;26;10

He logged in,

which is like a huge, huge issue.

00;45;26;13 - 00;45;29;20

And, that kind of got escalated.

00;45;29;24 - 00;45;33;01

And actually the landlord got indicted

by the Department of Justice.

00;45;33;08 - 00;45;38;06

And so it's very interesting,

all the all of the things we say

00;45;38;11 - 00;45;39;08

we also have,

00;45;39;08 - 00;45;41;20

unfortunately,

a lot of homeless people use our product

00;45;41;20 - 00;45;43;19

because they get parking tickets

in that car.

00;45;43;19 - 00;45;45;21

And we get a lot of notes about that.

00;45;45;21 - 00;45;48;14

But we also have incredibly

00;45;48;14 - 00;45;52;22

we have actually extremely wealthy

people use our product.

00;45;52;25 - 00;45;54;17

We're very big on user prices.

00;45;54;17 - 00;45;57;17

I won't mention explicit names,

but like literally billions

00;45;57;19 - 00;46;00;20

who are using our product to save $20.

00;46;00;20 - 00;46;03;10

And I think that speaks to the value

that we offer.

00;46;03;10 - 00;46;05;07

It's not even about the money

for some people.

00;46;05;07 - 00;46;07;10

It's about the, justice.

00;46;07;10 - 00;46;11;09

Like the feeling, the emotional justice of

of being ripped off is,

00;46;11;15 - 00;46;15;19

is is like so bad

that people will fight back and use that.

00;46;15;26 - 00;46;17;07

And I actually have a broader

00;46;17;07 - 00;46;21;09

thesis that the best companies

tap into some core human emotion.

00;46;21;15 - 00;46;25;21

So like Robinhood would be greed,

or Poly Market would be greed.

00;46;25;24 - 00;46;28;19

The dating apps would be lost

and do not pay.

00;46;28;19 - 00;46;31;18

It's really about justice. And anger.

00;46;31;25 - 00;46;34;10

Yeah, I, I completely buy into that.

00;46;34;10 - 00;46;37;19

And it's funny because that that actually

aligns fairly well with, you know,

00;46;37;19 - 00;46;42;05

some of the wealthier people

I know and, that that quest for justice.

00;46;42;05 - 00;46;45;05

But I think,

I mean, it's a huge motivator, right?

00;46;45;05 - 00;46;49;20

If you feel that you've been wronged in

some way, and,

00;46;49;23 - 00;46;50;07

you know,

00;46;50;07 - 00;46;53;13

the word that keeps coming back to me

for this behavior is it's predatory

00;46;53;13 - 00;46;57;03

on the on, you know, the part

of some of these organizations, right.

00;46;57;03 - 00;47;00;25

And they're taking advantage of the fact

that people don't have the,

00;47;00;28 - 00;47;03;03

you know,

the resources are in a lot of cases, just,

00;47;03;03 - 00;47;06;14

you know, strong enough will, I guess, to

to put the, the time and effort

00;47;06;14 - 00;47;10;16

into this, that if you're changing

the calculus for doing that,

00;47;10;19 - 00;47;14;05

you know, I, I'm very hopeful.

00;47;14;08 - 00;47;19;16

I want to be very hopeful that that'll

change some of these business practices.

00;47;19;19 - 00;47;20;06

Yeah.

00;47;20;06 - 00;47;24;08

If even if it doesn't change,

at least it will get people money back.

00;47;24;08 - 00;47;29;21

It's amazing that in, 2026, some gyms

00;47;29;21 - 00;47;35;12

still make you send a signed letter to,

cancel your gym membership.

00;47;35;15 - 00;47;39;24

And, how has the government not stepped

in to stop something like that?

00;47;40;00 - 00;47;44;06

And actually, a lot of our work

is connecting AI to the stone ages.

00;47;44;08 - 00;47;47;22

We literally have AI generate faxes

sometimes.

00;47;47;25 - 00;47;50;25

Because that's one way to cancel

AppleCare, for example.

00;47;50;28 - 00;47;53;28

And so, I'm not so optimistic.

00;47;53;29 - 00;47;58;09

I think do not pay, unfortunately,

is like an ETF on the world's problems.

00;47;58;09 - 00;48;01;11

And it seems like

the problems are only increasing.

00;48;01;14 - 00;48;02;04

Right.

00;48;02;04 - 00;48;05;07

So, I mean, if you, I'll ask you

a broad question, I guess.

00;48;05;07 - 00;48;08;20

But you roll the clock forward

a handful of years and suddenly it's,

00;48;08;20 - 00;48;12;21

you know, 20, 30 or so,

what does the space look like?

00;48;12;21 - 00;48;16;15

The space you operate in,

whether it's AI that basically the the,

00;48;16;15 - 00;48;21;21

the interaction, between

consumers and businesses, what's your

00;48;21;24 - 00;48;26;23

what's your, I guess, most realistic view

and what's your optimistic view.

00;48;26;26 - 00;48;30;07

That the average person doesn't

have to stress at all

00;48;30;07 - 00;48;33;18

about being exploited

by the big companies in the government.

00;48;33;18 - 00;48;36;12

And everything just works

in the background.

00;48;36;12 - 00;48;39;18

Someone is, you know,

00;48;39;25 - 00;48;43;18

have want to get a refund or something,

and I just do one tap.

00;48;43;23 - 00;48;47;14

I do think the modality of technology

will change,

00;48;47;14 - 00;48;49;10

and it's not going to be

an iPhone anymore.

00;48;49;10 - 00;48;53;03

Soon it will be,

perhaps in an airpod earpiece, or

00;48;53;06 - 00;48;56;06

perhaps in some sort of wearable.

00;48;56;10 - 00;48;59;02

And they just tap and it gets,

it gets sorted for them

00;48;59;02 - 00;49;02;13

and it's constantly

watching in the background.

00;49;02;16 - 00;49;02;29

Yeah.

00;49;02;29 - 00;49;05;23

So are you

what we talked about this a bit before.

00;49;05;23 - 00;49;10;13

Do you see us moving toward,

you know, basically a passive full time

00;49;10;16 - 00;49;13;13

AI assistant for people

that everybody just has their own

00;49;13;13 - 00;49;15;19

is that we're we're going toward. Yeah.

00;49;15;19 - 00;49;16;20

And there's a lot of rumors

00;49;16;20 - 00;49;19;21

in Silicon Valley

that OpenAI is actually building a pen.

00;49;19;27 - 00;49;23;25

So maybe just as you're

about to sign a contract,

00;49;23;25 - 00;49;27;08

the AI as a as a talking pen,

according to the public reports,

00;49;27;08 - 00;49;30;05

I have no insider information.

I'm just reading what the media is saying.

00;49;30;05 - 00;49;33;13

So am I one who could imagine that all

I do not pay.

00;49;33;13 - 00;49;38;01

Just as you're about to sign that loan

contract, the pen starts talking to you.

00;49;38;07 - 00;49;40;21

Don't sign it.

00;49;40;24 - 00;49;43;18

AI, I love I love the story of that.

00;49;43;18 - 00;49;45;21

I'm, I'm chuckling because I signed

00;49;45;21 - 00;49;49;04

I signed more contracts personally

and professionally that I would prefer.

00;49;49;07 - 00;49;53;23

And almost all of them, like I,

I don't often pull out a patent.

00;49;53;29 - 00;49;56;24

It's usually I'm using a PDF Yeah.

00;49;56;24 - 00;49;59;07

you know, what's the other one, the,

00;49;59;07 - 00;50;02;22

the online one where you have to get

everybody's signatures or what?

00;50;02;25 - 00;50;03;19

Docu sign.

00;50;03;19 - 00;50;04;12

DocuSign.

00;50;04;12 - 00;50;04;28

That's What

00;50;04;28 - 00;50;09;14

what what the joke is there's, like,

3000 people that work, a docu sign.

00;50;09;14 - 00;50;12;02

What do all the people do?

00;50;12;02 - 00;50;15;22

That's that's that's the joke

that everyone asks in Silicon Valley.

00;50;15;25 - 00;50;16;11

Yeah.

00;50;16;11 - 00;50;19;11

Well, and then DocuSign, to me, you know,

00;50;19;12 - 00;50;21;27

there was a time where I was like,

what's this?

00;50;21;27 - 00;50;23;03

And then it varied.

00;50;23;03 - 00;50;25;14

Just overnight is everywhere

being used for everything.

00;50;25;14 - 00;50;28;28

We just accept it as a standard. But,

00;50;29;01 - 00;50;29;29

yeah, if you can build something

00;50;29;29 - 00;50;33;27

into DocuSign saying, don't sign this,

that'll that'll be a very good day.

00;50;34;00 - 00;50;35;07

Do not sign.

00;50;35;07 - 00;50;37;03

Do not sign. Yeah.

00;50;37;03 - 00;50;39;14

Right. Yeah. sign.

00;50;39;14 - 00;50;40;11

I love that.

00;50;40;11 - 00;50;44;09

I guess maybe last question

then, Josh, for you is, you know,

00;50;44;12 - 00;50;46;16

you've

you've talked a little bit about things

00;50;46;16 - 00;50;48;16

you expect to see

in the next handful of years,

00;50;48;16 - 00;50;54;10

whether it's,

AI pans or robotics or AI assistants.

00;50;54;15 - 00;50;57;14

What's your boldest prediction for,

you know,

00;50;57;14 - 00;51;01;16

what technological breakthrough

we'll see in the next handful of years?

00;51;01;19 - 00;51;05;04

I think that if you combine everything

we've been talking about,

00;51;05;04 - 00;51;08;22

the unfortunate prediction

is that human relationships

00;51;08;27 - 00;51;12;15

start to increase with with robots,

real robots.

00;51;12;18 - 00;51;18;04

And people will have, physical

AI girlfriends and it will be very common.

00;51;18;07 - 00;51;23;03

I think unfortunately, the loneliness

epidemic is, like, really increasing.

00;51;23;10 - 00;51;25;05

And so I guess it could be

00;51;25;05 - 00;51;28;23

a solution to that, but it doesn't seem

like a very good solution.

00;51;28;26 - 00;51;29;29

that's a really interesting one.

00;51;29;29 - 00;51;34;16

And one of the ones that I,

I worry about as well, even calling it

00;51;34;16 - 00;51;38;14

a solution feels a little Yeah,

I retract that.

00;51;38;14 - 00;51;39;15

Actually.

00;51;39;15 - 00;51;43;09

No, I in case

it's a crisis, cliff, I just.

00;51;43;09 - 00;51;45;05

Yeah.

00;51;45;08 - 00;51;46;01

What, while it end.

00;51;46;01 - 00;51;47;10

Because, you know,

00;51;47;10 - 00;51;50;23

if you think about demography

and if you think about, you know,

00;51;50;23 - 00;51;55;05

the perpetuation of human life,

it feels like that could start

00;51;55;05 - 00;51;59;12

to be an existential risk to us, which is

really scary when you say, you know what?

00;51;59;12 - 00;52;03;06

I'm having more fun talking

to, you know, in any capacity, socializing

00;52;03;06 - 00;52;07;17

with, having a romantic relationship

with a machine than a person,

00;52;07;20 - 00;52;11;22

that does not bode super

well for the future of our species.

00;52;11;25 - 00;52;12;07

Yeah.

00;52;12;07 - 00;52;14;11

And, I think a lot of people,

00;52;14;11 - 00;52;18;15

they're relying on a really important life

decisions to ChatGPT.

00;52;18;18 - 00;52;21;18

There's AI like

phrase is called GPT psychosis, which is.

00;52;21;19 - 00;52;24;27

And you can kind of tell

because often times they'll communicate.

00;52;25;00 - 00;52;26;24

And it's really unfortunate.

00;52;26;24 - 00;52;28;09

I think millions of people are,

00;52;28;09 - 00;52;32;13

like they talk to ChatGPT every minute

and rely on their advice.

00;52;32;18 - 00;52;34;05

And I think it's good for information.

00;52;34;05 - 00;52;38;13

But I would encourage

everyone to take a step back.

00;52;38;16 - 00;52;41;05

So I think that's good advice.

00;52;41;05 - 00;52;42;15

And I'm curious within

00;52;42;15 - 00;52;45;15

within the scope of what you're doing with

the do not pay stuff.

00;52;45;20 - 00;52;48;12

If we can kind of flip on

flip it on its head,

00;52;48;12 - 00;52;51;15

and is there anything that you've seen

where you're you would advise

00;52;51;15 - 00;52;54;15

people don't try to use

do not pay or AI for this.

00;52;54;15 - 00;52;57;00

This is outside

the scope of what we can do.

00;52;57;00 - 00;53;00;02

And you're going to do more harm than good

if you try and use

00;53;00;08 - 00;53;04;06

like, like use cases

where it's just not right.

00;53;04;09 - 00;53;04;18

Yeah.

00;53;04;18 - 00;53;08;24

So much of the law is not about rules

and systems which AI is good at.

00;53;09;00 - 00;53;11;09

It's about people and emotions.

00;53;11;09 - 00;53;16;08

And so if you imagine divorce court where

people are like shouting at each other,

00;53;16;11 - 00;53;18;05

that's probably not a good use case of AI.

00;53;18;05 - 00;53;21;03

I think criminal defense is

is another one.

00;53;21;03 - 00;53;23;21

And I've been in these circles

for like ten years,

00;53;23;21 - 00;53;26;15

and a lot of people have floated

all sorts of different ideas.

00;53;26;15 - 00;53;31;12

But I think that the human side of the law

can never be replaced.

00;53;31;15 - 00;53;34;15

And, and maybe that's a good,

good job for humans.

00;53;34;19 - 00;53;38;11

Well, one thing I will say,

though, is in 10 or 20 years,

00;53;38;16 - 00;53;42;22

people will be laughing

that like someone's sentence was up

00;53;42;22 - 00;53;44;13

to, like some old man.

00;53;44;13 - 00;53;50;01

I do think that in sentencing,

AI will be increasingly used.

00;53;50;04 - 00;53;50;15

Right.

00;53;50;15 - 00;53;53;15

As a tool by judges Yeah. At.

00;53;53;19 - 00;53;54;28

judicial system.

00;53;54;28 - 00;53;55;08

Yeah.

00;53;55;08 - 00;53;58;22

And I think the Constitution that,

someone will still have to sign off

00;53;58;22 - 00;54;03;01

on that, but it will be largely AI driven

because it, it,

00;54;03;01 - 00;54;06;07

it is so unfair that someone's

if the judge there's actually a study

00;54;06;07 - 00;54;11;06

if the judge had like a coffee

that day, it reduces people's sentence.

00;54;11;09 - 00;54;12;08

Right.

00;54;12;08 - 00;54;15;28

And that's such an interesting one

because with technology in general,

00;54;16;01 - 00;54;20;24

I think we and maybe rightly so,

just hold technology to a much higher bar

00;54;20;27 - 00;54;25;11

than we do with people,

because I what I feel

00;54;25;11 - 00;54;28;07

and what I've heard is that if you just,

you know, tap

00;54;28;07 - 00;54;29;22

someone on the shoulder

on the street and say, hey,

00;54;29;22 - 00;54;32;24

do you want to move to a world

where I can, you know, carry out

00;54;32;24 - 00;54;36;00

sentencing for,

you know, people based on their crimes?

00;54;36;00 - 00;54;38;13

It sounds dystopian,

00;54;38;13 - 00;54;43;07

but if it's used in conjunction

with a person and it's,

00;54;43;10 - 00;54;45;26

you know, eliminating more bias

and it's creating,

00;54;45;26 - 00;54;50;00

you know, it's not difficult to believe

with the right argumentation

00;54;50;00 - 00;54;51;22

and the right implementation

00;54;51;22 - 00;54;55;14

that it could actually be,

you know, an order of magnitude better.

00;54;55;17 - 00;54;56;07

Yeah.

00;54;56;07 - 00;55;00;03

So it will be interesting to see.

00;55;00;06 - 00;55;00;23

Awesome.

00;55;00;23 - 00;55;02;24

Well, Josh, that wasn't

that wasn't necessarily the note

00;55;02;24 - 00;55;05;25

I thought we'd be ending on,

but it's it's, it's a provocative one.

00;55;06;00 - 00;55;07;22

I wanted to say a big

thank you for joining today.

00;55;07;22 - 00;55;10;18

This has been a really interesting

and insightful conversation.

00;55;10;18 - 00;55;13;12

Thank you for having me.

00;55;13;12 - 00;55;14;24

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