Digital Disruption

00;00;01;22 - 00;00;03;28

where we have to be really careful

with something like generative

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AI is the way that you would repurpose,

a sample within music

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is extraordinarily different

from the way that,

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a generative AI model recombines

the totality of its training data

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to synthesize all of the stolen material

in that to generate an output

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I don't want to sound snobby,

but I guess I'm going sound snobby.

00;00;21;12 - 00;00;24;03

some of this stuff where is being used?

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Feels a little low class.

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hey, I'm taking these two major characters

from two different IP and look at me

00;00;29;25 - 00;00;31;22

make them clash together.

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that doesn't say anything

it's an illustration of, an idea,

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but it isn't really telling me

much of a story everybody has a

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right to the opinion

of what they like to enjoy.

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Like that's the entire purpose of art

and breaking norms and making new things

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we're skipping over the process

and just going to result.

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sorry for swearing,

but what's the fucking point?

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This is a show about the future of tech

and the future of work.

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I'm Geoff Nielsen, and today,

my guests are the producers

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of the new documentary, the AI doc,

Charlie Tyrell and Ted Trumper.

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Your fear of

AI is the collapse of humanity,

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not the collapse,

the abrupt extermination.

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If we can be the most mature

version of ourselves, there might be a way

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through this I want to ask you to

promise me that this is going to go well.

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That is impossible.

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This is the last mistake we'll ever get to

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make. You.

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These guys have spent

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the past three years

investigating the questions of our time.

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How worried do we need to be about AI

and what do we do about it?

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They've spoken with everyone from Sam

Altman to Dario Amodei to AI skeptics,

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to experts

who think we're all going to die

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and have released the interviews

and their new movie.

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Having explored AI from so many angles

and so many experts, what I want to know

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is what they really believe

and what they think is total B.S..

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Let's find out.

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Well, Charlie,

Ted, thanks so much for being here today.

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Really excited to talk a little bit

about the AI doc

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that you guys have put together.

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And congratulations on now being honorary.

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You know, I storytellers

maybe just to to kick things off.

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You know, I'm curious,

why did you guys want to tell the story.

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What you know, brought you into. Okay.

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We need to talk about AI right now.

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This is worth making a movie about.

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I mean love.

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It starts back in kind of summer fall of

2023 is when this project first started.

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And that's when, you know,

the conversations are really starting

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to enter the more public spaces

and even if you're

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trying not to pay attention,

they were getting louder and louder.

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And for me, I would say I was honestly

probably trying to be a little bit

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dismissive of some of the hyperbole around

AI and tech at that time.

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But along with my co-director,

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Daniel Rower, where we,

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we both thought that we were having kids

at the same time.

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So kind of that, that big dialog that was

happening was, you know, our future is

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maybe probably going to change

significantly and drastically right now.

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Was suddenly a different thing.

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When you're considering,

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you know,

the fact that you're going into parenthood

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and you don't have a child

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to kind of bring into that future

and that future beyond you.

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So that was definitely something

I was thinking about.

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You know, and then simultaneously,

Daniel Kwan, one of the film's

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producers, reached out and said,

I want to make an AI movie.

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I have made a documentary before.

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And, you reach out to Daniel Rower.

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For the record,

Daniel Kwan can make a documentary.

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But he reached out to Daniel rower

and rower and I, we're pals, and

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we all got folded in, and a week later,

we're talking about making this movie.

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And then two and a half

years later and it's done.

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Yeah.

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For my part,

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I, I've been friends with Daniel Kwan

and Daniel Shriner for about 15 years,

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and we, Quan and I

are in a video game thread and there's

00;04;01;21 - 00;04;05;08

a very silly phrase that, that I've coined

that is accountability buddies.

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And it's really nice

to have nerdy friends,

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because if you become interested

in something,

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you can find an accountability buddy

to learn more about those things.

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And when he became aware of what was going

on with I before anybody that I knew,

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he kind of reached out and said,

I think you should be interested in this

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and that sort of

started a lot of conversations.

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And my background, oddly,

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is in comedy television, but mostly

like nonfiction, political satire stuff.

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And so when it came time, you know, when

they assembled this like, Wonder Team,

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they needed somebody to, to help kind of

book people and get people to say yes.

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And so he asked me to to jump

on, and I was going to

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I was supposed to start

and go for 5 or 6 weeks,

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and then it became

two and a half years. So.

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It's funny how that happens now,

00;04;48;28 - 00;04;53;07

you know, Charlie, you mentioned

you mentioned something around the,

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you know, sort of the framing here,

of you and Daniel, who,

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you know, is the director

and in some ways star of the movie.

00;04;59;08 - 00;05;04;23

That it was it came out of a place of,

you know, fatherhood, of having kids

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and anxiety about AI,

anxiety about the future.

00;05;08;17 - 00;05;09;27

I dread.

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And I'm curious if you can talk

a little bit more about that, like where

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where were your heads

at when you started this project?

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And now, given that you're on

the other side of it, it's been released.

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You know, you've done dozens of interviews

with experts in this space.

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Where is your head at these days in 2026

around, you know, AI anxiety and dread?

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I am,

00;05;32;06 - 00;05;36;08

steadily and consistently anxious person,

00;05;36;08 - 00;05;40;13

despite my maybe kind of calm

or flat demeanor.

00;05;40;13 - 00;05;43;13

I just vibrate so much that I look still.

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But, you know,

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it's, it's still there

that that that dread is still there.

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And the funny thing is, it's my kind of

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take and and feelings towards

I am perspective of it

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in an odd way, is very similar

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to how it was

when this project first started.

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But the difference is

I'm much more informed now.

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I have, in some ways more validation

to some of the fears and more kind

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of, knowledge towards

some of the things to understand kind of

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how it works, how it's working right now

and, and what's needed to change it.

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Before it was just kind of

a kind of an instinct in a sense

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that that, you know, motivated

some of my feelings.

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And now it's it's more kind of information

based

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while still not dismissing the feelings

and instincts that I have towards it.

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So when you say more information

based, you know,

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can you again, with the with the advent

of of this insight and having talked to

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this many people, does it have

a little bit more of a shape to it?

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Like what are what are the concerns

that are that are lingering in your mind

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about, you know, the what's

creating the sense of dread

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and what are the scenarios

that you're still, concerned about?

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A lot of it is still just, you know,

the ever growing wealth gap, to be honest.

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You know, this, this technology

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came in the package of,

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helping and optimizing individuals.

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It was it's been presented

as this new tool that everyone can use.

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But however that tool

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and that usage of that tool by hundreds,

thousands, millions,

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billions of individuals

is funneling towards, you know,

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corporate businesses,

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you know, it's it's moving towards,

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enabling,

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you know, people in power.

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And that power is defined by their wealth

to become more powerful.

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When you get to that level of powerful,

you influence governments

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and you influence, you know,

many other things that make the world go

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around and make life sustainable and happy

and peaceful for people on the planet.

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So that's the scary thing that, you know,

that that power is concentrating,

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through this technology.

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I'm curious, Ted,

if you know, if you agree with that,

00;08;05;28 - 00;08;08;28

if you have similar views on the,

you know, concerns around,

00;08;08;28 - 00;08;12;28

I guess, the concentration of wealth here

or any other,

00;08;12;28 - 00;08;16;15

you know, AI concerns or anxieties

that Charlie didn't touch on.

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Yeah.

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I think I think my answer to your question

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would be that, every day

I find more reasons to be hopeful.

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And every day

I find more reasons to be concerned.

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And I think that that's the nature

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of of technology

and humanity's relationship to technology.

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And I think that's why it's so important

to engage with the process of

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being involved in understanding

how it's affecting your life

00;08;35;28 - 00;08;37;24

and the lives of the people

you care about.

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And in terms of in this transcends,

I think I share Charlie's concerns

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about wealth inequality,

but it really does.

00;08;45;17 - 00;08;49;10

It proliferates in, in our lives

in the way that,

00;08;49;12 - 00;08;51;22

something like a technology

like electricity does.

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Or or,

you know, Karen, how is in the film?

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I think at one point said the idea of

being anti AI is like being anti-trans,

00;08;58;24 - 00;09;02;04

like it's such an enormous thing

that they're really critical part

00;09;02;04 - 00;09;06;21

is becoming educated enough to understand

that there are positive alternatives.

00;09;06;27 - 00;09;11;10

To the trajectory we're on

and the work that I've been doing now

00;09;11;10 - 00;09;15;15

with the Creators Coalition on AI,

is really inspiring because,

00;09;16;01 - 00;09;19;07

you know, Daniel quoted a certain point,

said, like, for every problem

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that you can imagine that AI is creating,

there are really brilliant people

00;09;22;10 - 00;09;23;24

who are trying to solve those problems.

00;09;23;24 - 00;09;26;24

And meeting

those people is like, inspiring.

00;09;27;00 - 00;09;30;19

But also the fact that nobody knows,

or not, as many people know

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about these people as they do about

the CEOs of the companies is very sad.

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And that sort of goes into the larger

discussion, that's present in the film

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of really the question is, you know,

fundamentally not about AI itself.

00;09;44;18 - 00;09;46;09

It's about how do we create a society

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that can coexist with stronger

and stronger technologies,

00;09;48;27 - 00;09;51;12

because we're only going to get stronger

and stronger technology.

00;09;51;12 - 00;09;54;01

And and what that means to me

is being personally

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involved in the process

of getting it right.

00;09;57;06 - 00;10;01;01

As opposed to focusing on the solution of

doing that because there is no solution.

00;10;01;10 - 00;10;02;17

It's a relationship.

00;10;02;17 - 00;10;05;26

So I think that, yeah, it's it's

00;10;07;05 - 00;10;08;02

you're living,

00;10;08;02 - 00;10;11;18

it a lot of it feels sometimes like

you're running on the top of a sand dune,

00;10;12;00 - 00;10;15;01

you know, emotionally, psychologically,

intellectually.

00;10;15;10 - 00;10;17;21

And it's very easy to want to slip off

and go to the other side.

00;10;17;21 - 00;10;20;20

But when you do that, you need to get

right back up on the top of there.

00;10;20;20 - 00;10;22;29

And keep running.

00;10;22;29 - 00;10;24;14

If you don't work in enterprise

00;10;24;14 - 00;10;27;25

technology, you can skip ahead

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and don't forget to like and subscribe!

00;11;00;25 - 00;11;02;23

the involvement

piece is really interesting.

00;11;02;23 - 00;11;07;23

And, you know, I think in some ways,

you know, a theme of a lot of the work

00;11;08;08 - 00;11;11;26

and also, I guess, an antidote to that,

00;11;12;01 - 00;11;15;21

this feeling, there's sort of this

nihilist feeling of, oh, I'm here

00;11;15;21 - 00;11;19;18

and this is all happening

and I can't control it at all.

00;11;20;19 - 00;11;23;19

I guess just to put a little bit

more color on that.

00;11;23;26 - 00;11;25;26

Have either of you guys

seen any specific ways?

00;11;25;26 - 00;11;28;24

I mean, Ted, you mentioned

you've got this kind of organization.

00;11;28;24 - 00;11;32;22

You're working with, but, you know,

concrete things that people can be doing

00;11;32;23 - 00;11;36;29

to get more involved, to help

kind of shape this, to help use this.

00;11;37;09 - 00;11;40;28

And I guess regain that sense of control

that, that some people, you know,

00;11;41;22 - 00;11;44;04

consuming this media digest around

00;11;44;04 - 00;11;47;04

AI are finding themselves in.

00;11;47;12 - 00;11;49;13

I think the most important part

is education.

00;11;49;13 - 00;11;51;05

Clarity creates agency.

00;11;51;05 - 00;11;54;17

You know, speaking to an extinction

risk, expert.

00;11;54;17 - 00;11;55;16

And they pointed out that

00;11;55;16 - 00;11;59;00

right now, 90% of the conversation

is going towards persuasion.

00;11;59;12 - 00;12;03;02

It's people who seem to have,

all the information telling you

00;12;03;02 - 00;12;05;03

exactly how this is going to roll out.

00;12;05;03 - 00;12;08;01

And that feeds this notion

that there's an inevitability

00;12;08;01 - 00;12;11;01

to how it's going to roll out,

which is which is categorically false.

00;12;11;05 - 00;12;14;23

That's the most important thing to

understand is that this is not inevitable.

00;12;15;03 - 00;12;16;00

You could make the argument

00;12;16;00 - 00;12;18;15

that technological development

itself is inevitable,

00;12;18;15 - 00;12;21;05

but you could then point to something

like human cloning, like there's

00;12;21;05 - 00;12;24;15

enormous incentives

to create super soldiers in every country,

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or to create clones and create,

you know, human organ farms.

00;12;28;02 - 00;12;29;26

But we as a society

decided not to do that.

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We've had that technology

for 30 or 40 years or at this point,

00;12;32;21 - 00;12;35;24

and I think when that comes to AI,

00;12;36;16 - 00;12;39;16

when you able to educate yourself

enough in your domain

00;12;39;26 - 00;12;43;13

to understand the impacts that it could

have or the benefits that it could have,

00;12;43;26 - 00;12;47;27

the next part is communicating with other

people to make sure that you are sharing

00;12;48;08 - 00;12;50;26

your feelings about this with the norms

you want to be in your workplace,

00;12;50;26 - 00;12;53;16

in your family,

in your school, in your kids school.

00;12;53;16 - 00;12;54;19

Because then you are able

00;12;54;19 - 00;12;57;19

to build a consensus

about where you want society to be moving.

00;12;57;20 - 00;12;59;04

So I think I think

that's what I would say.

00;13;02;00 - 00;13;04;09

Charlie, did you think that there.

00;13;04;09 - 00;13;07;08

Not much other than just the,

00;13;07;18 - 00;13;09;12

thinkers over subjects who pointed out

00;13;09;12 - 00;13;12;25

that the weird thing about AI

is that seem to come for the arts first.

00;13;13;11 - 00;13;18;16

So most of my kind of thinking and,

00;13;19;13 - 00;13;23;24

you know, discussing with colleagues

and friends, as to like, what to do,

00;13;23;25 - 00;13;27;03

what to do to empower

ourselves has has been in the art space

00;13;27;03 - 00;13;31;08

and some of that has just been

the simple, kind taboo of using

00;13;31;23 - 00;13;34;24

AI and AI generated imagery in your art,

in your work

00;13;35;06 - 00;13;40;08

and a lot of it has been

just kind of seeing a lot of people,

00;13;40;24 - 00;13;44;15

especially the people I know,

I love to try out

00;13;44;22 - 00;13;49;04

new technologies and new techniques

and new tools, really kind of scrutinize

00;13;49;04 - 00;13;50;01

and be critical

00;13;50;01 - 00;13;53;23

about what the back

end of the technology is and where it

00;13;53;23 - 00;13;55;20

kind of its power and capabilities

come from.

00;13;55;20 - 00;14;00;10

And that might include energy usage,

but it also may include, you know,

00;14;01;17 - 00;14;04;17

you know, some of the dystopian kind of,

00;14;04;28 - 00;14;08;20

Ted where they call the

the thumbs up, thumbs down, kind of,

00;14;10;07 - 00;14;12;25

the people who, who view the material

00;14;12;25 - 00;14;15;25

and kind of gauge accuracy,

but still human engagement.

00;14;16;26 - 00;14;17;28

Reinforcement through learning.

00;14;17;28 - 00;14;20;21

Reinforcement by human feedback.

Reinforcement learning by human feedback.

00;14;20;21 - 00;14;21;17

Yeah, yeah.

00;14;21;17 - 00;14;26;22

Like which which is all that's been taking

place in the Global South and, yeah.

00;14;26;22 - 00;14;30;00

And. Yeah, yeah, the

the training of some of these models,

00;14;30;17 - 00;14;33;14

has been, you know,

00;14;33;14 - 00;14;36;13

things that kind of,

00;14;37;07 - 00;14;39;29

Convince you to not use it,

in certain cases

00;14;39;29 - 00;14;43;19

because it to,

to avoid the kind of leisure of it

00;14;43;19 - 00;14;47;04

and the convenience of it

because and and also the other side of it.

00;14;47;04 - 00;14;47;09

Sorry.

00;14;47;09 - 00;14;52;23

I'm kind of on tangent here, Geoff, but,

it's it's really reaffirming, affirming

00;14;52;23 - 00;14;55;22

what kind of creation is from

a human level, like,

00;14;56;03 - 00;15;00;04

you know, oh, I have this thing

that can do my work for me,

00;15;00;15 - 00;15;02;28

but my work is me doing it.

00;15;02;28 - 00;15;05;00

So it's kind of giving up

some of those kind

00;15;05;00 - 00;15;08;28

of more philosophical questions

that we have to answer about, you know,

00;15;09;28 - 00;15;12;28

who who's making what here.

00;15;12;28 - 00;15;16;00

This this is

maybe a taboo question to ask, but

00;15;16;09 - 00;15;21;03

did you guys find you were using AI at all

as filmmakers as part of this?

00;15;21;03 - 00;15;23;24

And if so, what was that experience like?

00;15;23;24 - 00;15;26;17

The whole film is generative

AI which is really impressive.

00;15;26;17 - 00;15;28;06

We we had access to a model.

00;15;28;06 - 00;15;30;26

I'm of course joking.

00;15;30;26 - 00;15;34;24

Yeah, I think, I mean,

I can speak for my experience being

00;15;34;24 - 00;15;39;02

the person who needed to talk to people

to convince them to, appear in the film.

00;15;39;14 - 00;15;43;13

I was using every tool, as much as

possible and understanding how they work.

00;15;43;21 - 00;15;46;00

But in terms of the actual film itself,

00;15;46;00 - 00;15;48;18

there's no generative

AI that's not labeled as generative AI.

00;15;48;18 - 00;15;51;24

But I'll let Charlie to speak

to, like the the I mean, from day

00;15;51;24 - 00;15;54;28

one, you guys did such an amazing job

of making sure that it felt handmade,

00;15;57;10 - 00;15;57;19

Yeah.

00;15;57;19 - 00;16;01;06

I mean to, to Ted's point, like we,

we were definitely researching

00;16;01;06 - 00;16;05;00

and interacting with some of the tools,

you know, and sometimes

00;16;05;00 - 00;16;09;08

in the simplest way just to research

story avenues for the film, you know.

00;16;09;08 - 00;16;10;15

Oh saurus come out.

00;16;10;15 - 00;16;13;15

Do we want to maybe shine

a light on the film

00;16;14;13 - 00;16;17;06

or in the film on that technology

and that capability?

00;16;17;06 - 00;16;19;11

And, you know,

so we were familiarizing ourselves,

00;16;19;11 - 00;16;20;14

but in terms of

00;16;20;14 - 00;16;24;08

using it with the intention of

this is going to end up on the screen.

00;16;24;18 - 00;16;28;00

No. To Ted's point,

any kind of AI generated imagery

00;16;28;00 - 00;16;30;17

in the film is either labeled.

00;16;30;17 - 00;16;35;01

Most of it is just used as archival

or stuff from other news hits and whatnot.

00;16;35;01 - 00;16;41;01

But, yeah, we, decided to painstakingly

do most of the visuals and stop motion.

00;16;42;10 - 00;16;43;00

Ouch.

00;16;43;00 - 00;16;46;24

But, but I also, like I said,

what goes into earlier

00;16;46;24 - 00;16;49;12

reaffirmed

that kind of notion of human creativity.

00;16;49;12 - 00;16;53;21

And, you know, now it feels like

there's a different dog in the fight.

00;16;54;21 - 00;16;56;11

Well, and I would add to that, Jeff, like,

00;16;56;11 - 00;16;58;17

I really don't think that

this should be a taboo question.

00;16;58;17 - 00;17;02;05

Like one of the things that will help us

educate each other and establish the norms

00;17;02;05 - 00;17;05;07

in our art forms is, oh, did you use this?

00;17;05;07 - 00;17;06;14

Like, use?

00;17;06;14 - 00;17;11;01

Because, you know,

I in, it's such an enormous thing

00;17;11;01 - 00;17;12;26

that when you,

when you think back to Peter Jackson

00;17;12;26 - 00;17;16;05

using machine learning and little sprites

for the orcs and Lord of the rings,

00;17;16;19 - 00;17;18;08

like there is an argument to be made

00;17;18;08 - 00;17;21;10

that him doing that disenfranchize

thousands of background workers

00;17;21;10 - 00;17;22;20

that could have dressed up as orcs

00;17;22;20 - 00;17;25;10

and could have been part

of some massive helicopter shot,

00;17;25;10 - 00;17;27;26

but I think that they probably wouldn't

have been able to afford to do that.

00;17;27;26 - 00;17;33;25

And similarly, we had, you know,

3300 pages of transcripts that we used,

00;17;36;04 - 00;17;36;25

like transcription

00;17;36;25 - 00;17;39;27

services to, to, to, to, to do.

00;17;39;27 - 00;17;43;12

But for the Rush's, we,

you know, Adobe has an automatic

00;17;43;12 - 00;17;46;14

transcription tool

that helps you work very, very quickly.

00;17;46;22 - 00;17;49;27

And the question of whether or not

you want to use those tools is

00;17;49;29 - 00;17;52;04

these are the conversations

we need to be having.

00;17;52;04 - 00;17;55;06

I think that that it's

also really important just to begin

00;17;55;17 - 00;17;58;13

having longer conversations

that clearly delineate generative AI

00;17;58;13 - 00;18;02;09

from machine learning,

from an AI tool versus an AI service.

00;18;02;18 - 00;18;04;10

That's a big one.

00;18;04;10 - 00;18;08;12

I think as far as filmmaking goes,

really being clear about what is what

00;18;08;12 - 00;18;11;12

the difference between

a tool and a services.

00;18;12;14 - 00;18;14;17

It's it's interesting.

00;18;14;17 - 00;18;17;28

And it is interesting to hear

that you made a deliberate choice to,

00;18;18;05 - 00;18;21;21

you know, as you said,

Charlie painstakingly have a lot of,

00;18;21;21 - 00;18;23;29

you know, human made elements in this.

00;18;23;29 - 00;18;25;22

And I think,

you know, I have to imagine we're

00;18;26;25 - 00;18;28;24

we're in sort of a backlash phase

right now.

00;18;28;24 - 00;18;32;18

I feel, with a lot of AI usage

that it'll be interesting

00;18;32;18 - 00;18;33;28

to see how it plays out.

00;18;33;28 - 00;18;36;28

And, I mean, I don't know for what

it's worth, my perspective is that

00;18;37;14 - 00;18;40;14

if as storytellers, you want to use,

00;18;40;17 - 00;18;44;07

you know, generative AI tools

in the service of telling that story

00;18;44;07 - 00;18;47;22

to do, you know, cool things you wouldn't

otherwise be able to do.

00;18;48;03 - 00;18;48;15

Yeah.

00;18;48;15 - 00;18;51;15

It feels weird to say like, no, you know,

00;18;51;18 - 00;18;55;09

you should be like, you know, dragged

through the mud for making that choice.

00;18;55;09 - 00;18;59;11

Now, you know, if you just type into

a prompt like, what should my movie be?

00;18;59;11 - 00;19;02;03

And you, you know, outsource the script

and there's no thinking involved.

00;19;02;03 - 00;19;02;27

Sure.

00;19;02;27 - 00;19;06;13

You know, we're talking about something

different, but it's I don't know.

00;19;06;14 - 00;19;07;00

I mean,

00;19;07;00 - 00;19;09;08

I'm sure you've had

many of these conversations,

00;19;09;08 - 00;19;10;16

you know,

during the production of the movie.

00;19;10;16 - 00;19;13;16

And since it's come out,

do you have a feeling for

00;19;13;25 - 00;19;16;26

kind of the industry's posture,

even today on some of this stuff?

00;19;19;08 - 00;19;20;19

Not as a whole.

00;19;20;19 - 00;19;23;21

Like what I've seen from my own personal

perspective

00;19;23;21 - 00;19;26;21

has been,

00;19;29;03 - 00;19;31;07

I don't want to sound snobby,

00;19;31;07 - 00;19;33;15

but I guess I'm going sound snobby.

00;19;33;15 - 00;19;36;28

Is is some of this stuff

where is being used?

00;19;37;03 - 00;19;40;01

Feels a little low class.

00;19;40;01 - 00;19;44;15

Like it feels sometimes, you know, to

to to use some of it

00;19;44;25 - 00;19;46;19

for something like filmmaking

00;19;46;19 - 00;19;49;29

and not not just the kind of assistive

models where it's like, oh, yeah,

00;19;49;29 - 00;19;54;13

we're going to give a bunch of background

orcs for the like, hey, I'm taking these

00;19;54;13 - 00;19;57;21

two major characters from two different

IP and look at me make them clash

00;19;57;21 - 00;20;00;21

together.

00;20;01;09 - 00;20;05;10

That doesn't

that doesn't say anything to me.

00;20;05;10 - 00;20;07;11

That's like, that's it.

00;20;07;11 - 00;20;12;13

It's it's an illustration of, an idea,

00;20;12;21 - 00;20;17;04

but it isn't really telling me

much of a story because stories kind of.

00;20;17;04 - 00;20;21;01

I personally like the stories

that go other places and that, you know,

00;20;21;03 - 00;20;24;24

there's there's a reason why I use a lot

of analog visuals in my films or whatnot

00;20;24;24 - 00;20;27;07

is because I like

I like that collaboration.

00;20;27;07 - 00;20;29;04

I could, you know,

00;20;30;03 - 00;20;33;04

pick a picture

of an actor and turn them into a 3D model

00;20;33;04 - 00;20;36;02

and then give them a prompt

to make them do something.

00;20;36;02 - 00;20;41;28

And then they're now I've created a piece

of media, a film, a piece of video.

00;20;42;11 - 00;20;47;22

But for me as a filmmaker,

I like to find an actor

00;20;48;11 - 00;20;52;05

and then give them the material

and then see what they do with it

00;20;52;05 - 00;20;56;14

and see what happens in that collaboration

that the, the experience part of it

00;20;57;08 - 00;21;00;16

is, is the, the making to me.

00;21;00;16 - 00;21;03;00

And then the,

the result is what you get from that.

00;21;03;00 - 00;21;06;11

So it's like we're skipping

over the process and just going to result.

00;21;06;24 - 00;21;09;24

And to me like,

00;21;09;28 - 00;21;13;07

it's sorry for swearing,

but what's the fucking point?

00;21;13;16 - 00;21;16;16

Like, you know, so it's so, so it's asking

these existential questions of,

00;21;16;16 - 00;21;20;00

of, of myself, where it's,

00;21;20;10 - 00;21;23;26

you know,

I think that audience appetite is going to

00;21;25;05 - 00;21;27;28

dictate what we end up with.

00;21;27;28 - 00;21;30;26

For the most part, if, if this like,

00;21;30;26 - 00;21;33;19

you know, look at any kind of,

00;21;33;19 - 00;21;37;06

trade or craft,

00;21;37;06 - 00;21;41;24

outside of art, furniture

making, you know,

00;21;42;28 - 00;21;45;02

cooking, like most people get the quick

00;21;45;02 - 00;21;48;02

and fast and cheap rather than the

00;21;48;16 - 00;21;51;12

bespoke work with someone to do it again.

00;21;51;12 - 00;21;52;11

It's just the world we live in.

00;21;52;11 - 00;21;54;24

The affordability is difficult

with many things.

00;21;54;24 - 00;21;58;08

So, I hope that filmmaking doesn't

reserve

00;21;58;24 - 00;22;01;26

that reserved as something for, you know,

00;22;02;11 - 00;22;05;02

hoity toity people

who can afford the handmade film

00;22;05;02 - 00;22;07;27

because it has been a people's medium

for a long time.

00;22;07;27 - 00;22;10;26

It's been it's been the accessible form

00;22;10;26 - 00;22;13;26

of entertainment

for a lot of people for 100 years.

00;22;13;28 - 00;22;16;28

And I hope it

I hope the human made filmmaking

00;22;17;02 - 00;22;20;02

gets to remain that. So

00;22;21;06 - 00;22;24;04

bomber time.

00;22;24;04 - 00;22;26;20

There's again

00;22;26;20 - 00;22;28;29

what I was going to I was going to say

and you know Ted, I'm curious

00;22;28;29 - 00;22;29;21

for your thoughts on it.

00;22;29;21 - 00;22;30;16

There's, there's,

00;22;30;16 - 00;22;33;17

you know, an implication

there in a parallel that, you know, maybe

00;22;34;03 - 00;22;38;08

as sort of a lowest common

denominator tool, if I can call it that,

00;22;38;08 - 00;22;40;23

that if you're an amateur filmmaker,

it's a great shortcut.

00;22;40;23 - 00;22;42;26

If you're in film school,

it's a great shortcut.

00;22;42;26 - 00;22;45;26

But if we're really talking

about comparing,

00;22;46;10 - 00;22;50;16

you know, top tier filmmaking to,

you know, a great restaurant or,

00;22;50;17 - 00;22;54;17

you know, any sort of,

you know, state of the art experience,

00;22;55;07 - 00;22;58;22

then then cutting these corners

is something that audiences will feel

00;22;58;22 - 00;22;59;27

and they won't appreciate.

00;22;59;27 - 00;23;02;25

And it's a place where it's worth

putting in the work

00;23;02;25 - 00;23;07;11

and putting in the effort to get something

that that really elevates the experience

00;23;07;11 - 00;23;11;12

still, versus just trying to do it

as, as cheaply as possible.

00;23;11;19 - 00;23;13;27

I don't know, Ted,

what do you make of that?

00;23;13;27 - 00;23;17;02

I mean, I think it's really interesting

because I've been looking back

00;23;17;02 - 00;23;20;03

at the history of technology and the way

that technology transforms art.

00;23;20;03 - 00;23;20;28

And I feel like we.

00;23;20;28 - 00;23;23;12

Exactly what you just said

could have been said about,

00;23;23;12 - 00;23;26;17

transition from,

celluloid film to digital film.

00;23;26;24 - 00;23;28;19

They'll never be able

to get the film grain right.

00;23;28;19 - 00;23;31;10

It'll never it'll never look right.

There's a thing I call just like the.

00;23;31;10 - 00;23;33;10

It will never be able to paradox

00;23;33;10 - 00;23;36;27

where, you know, it's like when it comes

to around like hip hop and sampling.

00;23;37;00 - 00;23;39;11

Well, they can't even play an instrument

that's not music.

00;23;39;11 - 00;23;42;11

These are these are things that,

00;23;42;11 - 00;23;45;29

are wonderful conversations

to have as human beings.

00;23;45;29 - 00;23;48;18

And everybody has a right to the opinion

of what they like to enjoy.

00;23;48;18 - 00;23;52;16

Like that's the entire purpose of art and

and breaking norms and making new things

00;23;52;23 - 00;23;55;23

where we have to be really careful

with something like generative AI is

00;23;56;02 - 00;23;58;20

that rather than, you know,

00;23;59;28 - 00;24;00;13

the way

00;24;00;13 - 00;24;05;10

that you would repurpose, a sample

within music is extraordinarily different

00;24;05;18 - 00;24;09;21

from the way that, you know, a generative

AI model recombines

00;24;09;21 - 00;24;11;03

the totality of its training data

00;24;11;03 - 00;24;14;11

to synthesize all of the stolen material

in that to generate an output

00;24;14;27 - 00;24;18;14

that that, to me

is categorically different because,

00;24;18;14 - 00;24;22;06

there is no, there's no choice

that you're really making in that regard.

00;24;22;06 - 00;24;26;06

There's no there's no intention,

to, to say whether or not

00;24;26;06 - 00;24;29;09

it has value to a large audience

or to any audience.

00;24;29;14 - 00;24;33;00

That's not for me to say,

but I do think that it's really important

00;24;33;11 - 00;24;37;17

to avoid believing that it will

never be able to do certain things.

00;24;37;17 - 00;24;40;05

For for three years

I just watched as people say,

00;24;40;05 - 00;24;41;25

it'll never be able to get the hands

right.

00;24;41;25 - 00;24;43;15

It'll never be able to produce sound.

00;24;43;15 - 00;24;45;18

It'll never be able to show, text.

00;24;45;18 - 00;24;50;06

These are things that are deadly mistakes

to become,

00;24;50;06 - 00;24;53;26

sort of falsely assured

that the position of the artist

00;24;53;26 - 00;24;56;26

in society or the craftsperson

society will not be replaced.

00;24;57;01 - 00;25;01;00

So, removing that as,

00;25;01;03 - 00;25;06;00

a sort of mental position is really,

really important.

00;25;06;05 - 00;25;08;14

We need to act

as though it will be able to.

00;25;08;14 - 00;25;09;14

And so what that means

00;25;09;14 - 00;25;12;27

is that we have to put policies in place

where we are fighting for

00;25;12;27 - 00;25;16;00

compensation to the people

whose training day was put in there.

00;25;16;07 - 00;25;19;19

We need to fight for,

transparency, for consent,

00;25;19;26 - 00;25;22;07

all of these different things,

because there actually is a world

00;25;22;07 - 00;25;24;28

in which you could have generative

AI models that are ethical.

00;25;24;28 - 00;25;27;01

I don't believe any exist right now.

00;25;27;01 - 00;25;29;05

And moreover,

when as part of the work with the Creators

00;25;29;05 - 00;25;31;11

Coalition, we'll have tech companies

reach out to us

00;25;31;11 - 00;25;33;16

and they'll say, great news, we've solved.

00;25;33;16 - 00;25;37;00

We have a vegan model, an ethical

AI image generation model.

00;25;37;00 - 00;25;38;29

And I'll say, great,

what does that mean to you?

00;25;38;29 - 00;25;41;29

And let's say, well,

all of our all of our images were, were,

00;25;42;15 - 00;25;44;04

were licensed

just from a license data set.

00;25;44;04 - 00;25;46;03

And I'll say, great.

What was your foundation model?

00;25;46;03 - 00;25;48;02

And they'll say,

what's the foundation model?

00;25;48;02 - 00;25;49;22

And then you get to have the conversation.

00;25;49;22 - 00;25;53;13

I told my wife about this, that like,

it really sometimes is like talking.

00;25;53;13 - 00;25;56;13

You walk into a car dealership

and all the salespeople are very nice

00;25;56;17 - 00;25;59;17

because they don't know

that all of the cars are stolen there.

00;26;00;05 - 00;26;03;20

And when when they learn

that there is such a thing

00;26;03;20 - 00;26;06;07

as a foundation model

and that if you're able to interact

00;26;06;07 - 00;26;10;15

with it currently with any efficacy, that

that was likely built on the totality of,

00;26;10;15 - 00;26;14;15

of all of human knowledge that's been

stolen and put into that, that model,

00;26;15;12 - 00;26;18;20

that's when they get to the choice

as to whether or not they want to,

00;26;18;21 - 00;26;24;00

I would say, join what I would sort of

largely call a pro human fight towards

00;26;24;00 - 00;26;27;23

honoring the, knowledge of the people

that went into training that model.

00;26;27;23 - 00;26;28;02

And that's

00;26;28;02 - 00;26;31;26

how you get a positive feedback loop

with these kinds of services and tools, is

00;26;32;06 - 00;26;36;11

you acknowledge what's gone on

and you find ways to create consent,

00;26;36;18 - 00;26;40;16

compensation, transparency about what

we're creating now.

00;26;40;16 - 00;26;43;23

And that's totally possible,

but very rarely talked about.

00;26;45;29 - 00;26;47;09

I think you and I have talked to

00;26;47;09 - 00;26;51;27

some of the same advocates,

you know, for doing something like this.

00;26;51;27 - 00;26;55;03

You know, I think about, you know, doctor

Emily Bender, doctor, to me, Gebru,

00;26;55;11 - 00;26;58;18

who who have advocated for this for,

for years,

00;26;59;01 - 00;27;02;03

you know, from your perspective, Ted,

and in light of,

00;27;02;09 - 00;27;05;09

you know, your your work in this area,

00;27;05;24 - 00;27;08;25

you know, what do you see

as the most fruitful path forward?

00;27;08;25 - 00;27;09;18

Because I think you're right.

00;27;09;18 - 00;27;13;15

Like that foundation model question

makes it really difficult.

00;27;13;15 - 00;27;16;15

Like if we're talking about the foundation

00;27;16;20 - 00;27;19;20

of so much of this being stolen, like it,

00;27;20;10 - 00;27;22;02

I'm going to go down

a slightly weird road.

00;27;22;02 - 00;27;25;09

But if we're talking about, you know,

building an ethical house on stolen

00;27;25;09 - 00;27;30;11

land, like, how do you how do you get past

the stolen land problem, right?

00;27;30;11 - 00;27;31;18

Like what?

00;27;31;18 - 00;27;34;26

What meaningful things

should we be pushing for from a policy

00;27;34;26 - 00;27;38;12

perspective that help us,

you know, do this in a fairer way?

00;27;39;00 - 00;27;40;08

I think there's a lot of things.

00;27;41;17 - 00;27;43;11

I'm so glad you brought up that metaphor,

because I think

00;27;43;11 - 00;27;46;21

it's possibly the most appropriate

metaphor that we have.

00;27;47;04 - 00;27;50;04

I think that when one looks at,

00;27;51;06 - 00;27;53;14

mass injustices in the past,

something like apartheid,

00;27;53;14 - 00;27;55;28

you need a truth

and reconciliation process

00;27;55;28 - 00;27;58;01

in order to be able

to get people on the same page

00;27;58;01 - 00;28;01;11

about what has happened, in order

to be create a future that where you avoid

00;28;01;11 - 00;28;04;11

those kinds of, things reoccurring.

00;28;04;28 - 00;28;07;28

And I think that when it comes down to,

00;28;09;01 - 00;28;12;05

you know, what a policy direction

looks like and what people can do,

00;28;12;25 - 00;28;16;02

number one, it's in specifically

the creative industries

00;28;16;02 - 00;28;18;21

just never make a deal

that forgives past theft.

00;28;18;21 - 00;28;22;00

And it's ironic, I was speaking to,

00;28;22;09 - 00;28;25;09

you know, that there are people currently

who are designing protocols,

00;28;25;11 - 00;28;29;23

where you would be able to, to back

propagate to see what, information

00;28;29;23 - 00;28;32;26

has been called upon to generate an output

when those things happen.

00;28;32;26 - 00;28;35;28

And there's many people working on this,

there's other researchers who have proven

00;28;35;28 - 00;28;39;02

that, for example, like memorization,

that the models have memorized things.

00;28;39;02 - 00;28;41;12

And so it debunks it

systematically debunks

00;28;41;12 - 00;28;44;02

all the different lags

that the labs have to stand on.

00;28;44;02 - 00;28;46;24

That work is really important.

00;28;46;24 - 00;28;49;21

Supporting the people who are doing

that work is incredibly important.

00;28;49;21 - 00;28;54;29

Understanding that you, the vote

with your dollars approach is possibly

00;28;54;29 - 00;28;57;29

the most instrumental thing

you can do with these specific labs.

00;28;58;01 - 00;28;59;29

We saw how that played out with anthropic

00;28;59;29 - 00;29;03;20

refusing to, cave to the demands

of the Department of War.

00;29;03;25 - 00;29;05;18

Sam Altman tweeting on Friday, good news.

00;29;05;18 - 00;29;06;28

We've taken over those contracts.

00;29;06;28 - 00;29;10;10

And then a million and a half people

unsubscribe from the paid tier of ChatGPT.

00;29;11;11 - 00;29;11;28

And then Sam

00;29;11;28 - 00;29;14;28

has to reverse course, at least verbally.

00;29;14;28 - 00;29;17;04

But then we also know

that we should never trust,

00;29;17;04 - 00;29;20;07

we should never trust any of these people

because the game is too.

00;29;20;07 - 00;29;22;19

The stakes are too high

to just operate on trust.

00;29;22;19 - 00;29;25;15

So it's sort of all of those things,

all of this is all playing together

00;29;25;15 - 00;29;27;29

in an ecosystem

where we need to be highly skeptical.

00;29;27;29 - 00;29;30;10

We need to verify, and anecdote.

00;29;30;10 - 00;29;30;19

I'd like to

00;29;30;19 - 00;29;33;10

you did Deborah Raji, who's in the film

as a tremendous researcher, was part

00;29;33;10 - 00;29;37;28

of essentially a campaign

to shame, Amazon into stop using facial

00;29;38;05 - 00;29;41;16

or licensing their facial recognition

software to law enforcement

00;29;41;16 - 00;29;45;22

because it was so bad, at identifying,

accurately identifying people of color.

00;29;45;22 - 00;29;47;17

And so there were a lot of false arrests.

00;29;47;17 - 00;29;50;18

They they successfully did that,

and that's fantastic.

00;29;50;28 - 00;29;52;21

But then Amazon bought ring.

00;29;52;21 - 00;29;58;04

And then ring is able to license their

their it's the cycle will always continue.

00;29;58;09 - 00;30;01;06

And the incentives in our society

will always be such that

00;30;01;06 - 00;30;03;00

well until they're changed

00;30;03;00 - 00;30;05;18

for these companies

to try to find the most profitable way

00;30;05;18 - 00;30;07;20

to use the technology

that they've developed.

00;30;07;20 - 00;30;10;19

And so it's up to all of us

to be able to kind of push back

00;30;10;19 - 00;30;14;02

and make sure that we're kind

of keeping an eye out for all this stuff

00;30;14;02 - 00;30;17;02

and supporting the people who are doing

the work that we don't know how to do,

00;30;17;08 - 00;30;19;10

with our voices

and with our with our dollars.

00;30;21;20 - 00;30;23;24

I'm not sure if I fully answered

your question, but is basically.

00;30;23;24 - 00;30;26;24

Yeah, I mean, it's it's

00;30;26;28 - 00;30;30;07

the thing I would like to add

is that that work doesn't have to suck.

00;30;30;07 - 00;30;31;26

It doesn't have to be drudgery.

00;30;31;26 - 00;30;35;13

It's literally as simple

as just like having having a friend

00;30;35;13 - 00;30;38;13

that you trust and or having people like,

00;30;39;17 - 00;30;41;24

you know, the people you've mentioned

or other researchers

00;30;41;24 - 00;30;46;24

who can help you understand,

the ways in which certain, you know,

00;30;46;24 - 00;30;50;25

parts of the system are being exploited

for gain by other people in that system.

00;30;51;03 - 00;30;53;12

And I think it's really important

to not just have 1 or 2.

00;30;53;12 - 00;30;56;26

You got to kind of keep your eyes scanning

based off of what your priorities are.

00;30;59;07 - 00;31;01;14

One of the, the topics of conversation

00;31;01;14 - 00;31;05;19

that that does come up in the film

and a lot of conversations about AI,

00;31;06;06 - 00;31;09;08

it is this notion, there's this concern

00;31;09;19 - 00;31;15;26

that as we're in this kind of race,

this arms race for AI,

00;31;16;05 - 00;31;19;18

that cutting corners or,

you know, doing things

00;31;19;18 - 00;31;24;08

unethically is part of the pressure

to succeed here.

00;31;24;08 - 00;31;28;14

And so, yes,

we can try and use data ethically, but

00;31;29;02 - 00;31;31;23

I mean, I'll just give you

my perspective on this that,

00;31;31;23 - 00;31;35;06

you know, it seems pretty obvious

that these models perform better

00;31;35;06 - 00;31;36;29

the more data that they get.

00;31;36;29 - 00;31;39;26

And so I,

you know, to be a bit conspiratorial,

00;31;39;26 - 00;31;43;24

I think they're using even more

ill gotten, you know, data

00;31;43;24 - 00;31;47;05

and proprietary stuff

than even we've discovered yet.

00;31;47;20 - 00;31;50;28

And so how do you,

you know, against that backdrop, like,

00;31;50;28 - 00;31;54;02

how do we how do we push back on that?

00;31;54;02 - 00;31;58;12

How do how do we make sure that we that

we get ahead and that we I don't know,

00;31;59;13 - 00;32;01;22

sort of acknowledge and maybe

00;32;01;22 - 00;32;05;22

undo, undo the the harm of the nature

00;32;05;22 - 00;32;08;22

of the race itself.

00;32;09;11 - 00;32;11;16

I, I think that

00;32;11;16 - 00;32;14;10

there's a number of things

that give me hope, in this regard.

00;32;14;10 - 00;32;16;26

And when you talk about winning the race,

we're really talking about the race

00;32;16;26 - 00;32;19;26

between the labs to reach AGI

and the race between the US and China

00;32;19;26 - 00;32;24;10

to to ostensibly reach AGI

or to some kind of, to maximally,

00;32;24;10 - 00;32;28;15

implement gains

that AI is yielding in their society.

00;32;29;00 - 00;32;32;03

One of the biggest forums

that we have in the West,

00;32;32;03 - 00;32;35;29

if you care about these kinds of issues,

is the fact that in China,

00;32;36;08 - 00;32;39;24

they've already won the society's

culture war, as it pertains to AI.

00;32;40;02 - 00;32;44;00

There was a recent New York Times

reporting that that pointed out,

00;32;44;23 - 00;32;45;25

you know, by and large,

00;32;47;03 - 00;32;49;28

people in Chinese society are very pro

AI because they look at it,

00;32;49;28 - 00;32;52;29

they look at the ways that it can I

they basically have

00;32;53;07 - 00;32;56;07

our seeing the ways that is being deployed

at all level of society.

00;32;56;10 - 00;32;57;12

And they're very in favor of it.

00;32;57;12 - 00;32;59;18

They're they're pro technology,

00;32;59;18 - 00;33;02;01

part of the reason

why the West is so skeptical of it

00;33;02;01 - 00;33;05;08

is because of our first contact with AI,

which is social media,

00;33;05;18 - 00;33;08;18

and the ways that social media

has caused enormous harm.

00;33;08;23 - 00;33;11;23

And that being an example of the way

that we lost by winning that race.

00;33;12;06 - 00;33;16;05

And so in order for us to succeed,

00;33;16;27 - 00;33;20;02

there are companies that proselytize

this idea of creating a race to the top.

00;33;20;20 - 00;33;25;17

It is society's job to clearly paint

a picture of what that looks like.

00;33;25;24 - 00;33;28;01

So that way

we are creating the opportunity

00;33;28;01 - 00;33;32;07

for those labs to win back

the hearts and minds and society.

00;33;32;07 - 00;33;37;17

Because if our general standpoint is AI,

terrible AI, bad hate AI,

00;33;37;23 - 00;33;41;13

there is no incentive for anyone to build

an ethical AI in that race continues.

00;33;41;21 - 00;33;43;21

So it's like that sort of

on a personal level

00;33;43;21 - 00;33;45;14

geopolitically,

that's a whole other conversation.

00;33;45;14 - 00;33;47;29

But I think

just like on a very personal level,

00;33;47;29 - 00;33;51;20

unless we are setting the norms

and standards within our own lives

00;33;51;20 - 00;33;54;21

and being very vocal about what those are

and where we want AI to meet us,

00;33;55;11 - 00;33;59;09

then we are not doing our job

in clarifying where we want it to go.

00;33;59;14 - 00;34;03;06

And if we don't do that, there is

no reason for them to try to be ethical.

00;34;06;01 - 00;34;07;08

I think that's well said.

00;34;07;08 - 00;34;11;22

And I want to, you know,

I want to kind of pivot that into,

00;34;11;22 - 00;34;14;22

you know, something

I've been curious about, which is

00;34;15;27 - 00;34;18;15

there's so many narratives

now, there's so much hype.

00;34;18;15 - 00;34;24;00

And, you know, even when you guys

and for me, as while doing our jobs

00;34;24;00 - 00;34;28;04

as AI investigators,

everybody has such a different message.

00;34;28;04 - 00;34;31;15

And I always chuckle because the message

that they have tends to align

00;34;31;27 - 00;34;35;08

very closely to whatever product

they're trying to sell or whatever service

00;34;35;08 - 00;34;36;10

they're trying to sell.

00;34;36;10 - 00;34;39;02

But but I'm curious,

you know, having investigated

00;34;39;02 - 00;34;42;13

and having researched and spoken

with so many experts,

00;34;43;08 - 00;34;46;08

are there any narratives

you're seeing pushed right now

00;34;46;16 - 00;34;50;12

that you're just not buying that,

that you can see are clearly being sold,

00;34;50;12 - 00;34;54;05

that there's some sort of profit mandate

or that that you want to express

00;34;54;14 - 00;34;56;23

that people should be more skeptical

of it, maybe.

00;34;56;23 - 00;34;58;10

Charlie, I'll start with you on this one.

00;35;00;07 - 00;35;00;17

Yeah.

00;35;00;17 - 00;35;03;17

I mean, I think

to a total was saying earlier just this,

00;35;03;19 - 00;35;06;19

this narrative,

00;35;07;03 - 00;35;09;28

this idea that it is an inevitability,

00;35;09;28 - 00;35;15;18

and that it is, like predestination,

like how we evolve from apes.

00;35;15;18 - 00;35;18;18

We're going to go into digital beings

or machines.

00;35;19;07 - 00;35;22;02

I just

00;35;22;02 - 00;35;23;08

have to disagree with that.

00;35;23;08 - 00;35;27;28

I mean, we and Ted cited some earlier,

like human cloning.

00;35;29;03 - 00;35;31;23

But it's just

00;35;31;23 - 00;35;32;22

what I would love to see.

00;35;32;22 - 00;35;34;24

And this is kind of going to

to your last question

00;35;34;24 - 00;35;38;21

is, I would love to see us focus on a way

how to make AI,

00;35;39;05 - 00;35;43;06

even if for now it's limited

to certain countries or communities.

00;35;43;07 - 00;35;46;27

Before we try and go wider with it,

00;35;46;27 - 00;35;50;04

find a way

how to make it more democratic,

00;35;50;04 - 00;35;55;02

how to make you know what the capabilities

and uses of this technology,

00;35;56;12 - 00;35;57;22

are to be kind

00;35;57;22 - 00;36;01;03

decided by more than just a few people.

00;36;02;09 - 00;36;05;09

You know, because that will determine

the want, that will determine the need

00;36;06;01 - 00;36;08;00

people in one part of the world

might need to do one thing

00;36;08;00 - 00;36;09;23

when people in another part

need to do another thing,

00;36;09;23 - 00;36;12;26

and then the resources will balance out

based on those needs.

00;36;12;26 - 00;36;17;05

You know, because resources

will have limitations on what it can do.

00;36;18;23 - 00;36;22;15

So, yeah, I don't think I answered

your question, unfortunately.

00;36;22;25 - 00;36;25;26

But but I it just really

00;36;26;09 - 00;36;29;28

that this thing is, is an inevitability

00;36;29;28 - 00;36;33;16

and is on a continued descent

and its capabilities and its,

00;36;34;25 - 00;36;35;17

its possibilities.

00;36;35;17 - 00;36;38;11

I do agree with Ted,

that you have to default and assume

00;36;38;11 - 00;36;40;18

that we'll be able to do everything

it says it can,

00;36;40;18 - 00;36;44;11

but I think that that ascent

is only ever going to taper off

00;36;44;11 - 00;36;47;23

or it's at some point

because there are finite capabilities.

00;36;47;23 - 00;36;49;02

And just in terms of resources

00;36;49;02 - 00;36;53;06

on this planet,

that it's going to run into at some point.

00;36;54;05 - 00;36;56;14

well, to your point there, it sounds like,

00;36;56;14 - 00;36;59;09

you know,

part of part of what you're saying is that

00;36;59;09 - 00;37;03;15

the idea that somehow

this race is too fast and too important

00;37;03;15 - 00;37;07;13

for any sort of governance or regulation,

it kind of seems like B.S.

00;37;07;13 - 00;37;09;19

to you, right? Like like, yeah.

00;37;09;19 - 00;37;09;23

that.

00;37;09;23 - 00;37;14;01

And like, right now

and going back to the democratization of

00;37;14;01 - 00;37;19;08

of its capabilities is and and resources,

resources can be bought right now.

00;37;19;18 - 00;37;23;18

Despite limitations in place, it's

something that can be paid for.

00;37;23;26 - 00;37;27;17

So the wealthiest ones are getting there

first

00;37;27;17 - 00;37;31;00

because they're able to afford

those resources and able to, you know,

00;37;31;16 - 00;37;35;24

pay the fees, pay

the fines, to, to occupy them

00;37;36;05 - 00;37;42;21

and that kind of consumption

can be confused with power.

00;37;44;04 - 00;37;46;01

And that

00;37;46;01 - 00;37;48;25

power isn't something

00;37;48;25 - 00;37;51;08

that we have to accept.

00;37;51;08 - 00;37;53;06

We can choose who we get power to.

00;37;53;06 - 00;37;57;07

Collectively, it just takes

a lot of organization to do so.

00;37;57;16 - 00;38;00;16

So that that's where that's

where my kind of fundamental beliefs

00;38;00;16 - 00;38;01;26

as a human being go to.

00;38;01;26 - 00;38;04;15

And there's just so much noise out there

right now

00;38;04;15 - 00;38;06;10

that it's hard to know

where to direct that energy.

00;38;06;10 - 00;38;09;24

And where to direct that collaborative

and collective decision making.

00;38;11;23 - 00;38;13;02

Makes sense to me, Tad.

00;38;13;02 - 00;38;17;03

Where's the, you know, what to you

hits your B.S., radar, even as you hear,

00;38;17;03 - 00;38;22;08

you know, some of the, you know, most

prolific and loudest voices speak on this.

00;38;22;27 - 00;38;24;25

I think, Charlie nailed it.

00;38;24;25 - 00;38;28;07

The the most insidious narrative

is that this is inevitable.

00;38;28;14 - 00;38;31;09

It's not inevitable

that humanity gets to shape,

00;38;31;09 - 00;38;33;06

but there's has been

the story of all technology.

00;38;33;06 - 00;38;37;03

Is it an enormously asymmetrical battle

with with, the greatest investment

00;38;37;03 - 00;38;40;14

in the history of civilization being

dumped towards one very specific thing.

00;38;40;23 - 00;38;41;27

Absolutely.

00;38;41;27 - 00;38;45;24

Does that mean that, you know, it's

00;38;46;09 - 00;38;48;27

there was one moment

where we were talking to a,

00;38;48;27 - 00;38;51;19

I can't disclose who the source was, but

00;38;51;19 - 00;38;55;08

we were talking to someone, and,

this person had been

00;38;55;08 - 00;38;58;09

had had been talking to a lawmaker,

and they just said offhanded.

00;38;58;09 - 00;39;00;14

Like how many people would need to call

to, to, like,

00;39;00;14 - 00;39;02;24

have this issue

get in front of this lawmaker.

00;39;02;24 - 00;39;05;11

And the staffer they were speaking to

is like,

00;39;05;11 - 00;39;09;02

you know, like ten people call like,

we have to we have to write it down.

00;39;09;02 - 00;39;12;02

We have to like, deliver

that to the congressperson.

00;39;12;05 - 00;39;14;00

And this person was like ten.

00;39;14;00 - 00;39;15;21

That's it for like ten, ten.

00;39;16;24 - 00;39;17;26

So the idea that, like,

00;39;17;26 - 00;39;21;23

you know, if a couple hundred

people actually cared about these things

00;39;21;23 - 00;39;25;06

and made it, made their voices heard,

then that can actually move the needle.

00;39;25;18 - 00;39;28;18

The challenge there is that,

00;39;29;18 - 00;39;31;21

There's two different sides of this coin.

00;39;31;21 - 00;39;34;26

There's the this is inevitable

myth that needs to be debunked

00;39;34;26 - 00;39;37;06

on the side of the people

who are pushing progress,

00;39;37;06 - 00;39;41;07

and then there's also the

this is the solution myth that needs to be

00;39;41;07 - 00;39;45;14

pushed back on from the advocacy side

because there is no single solution.

00;39;45;23 - 00;39;49;25

It's, you know, Uvalde in Harare points

out in the film, this is a relationship.

00;39;50;20 - 00;39;53;27

And the, the, the thing

I've learned about relationships are,

00;39;53;27 - 00;39;56;03

if you look at them

as a series of problems to be solved,

00;39;56;03 - 00;39;58;22

you're going to be miserable

and you're not going to have a great time.

00;39;58;22 - 00;40;02;27

But if you understand what your values are

and you set up certain boundaries

00;40;02;27 - 00;40;06;08

and you're able to have conversations

about that, you're able to then shape,

00;40;07;11 - 00;40;09;21

they'll be able to be like in a flow

and actually

00;40;09;21 - 00;40;13;22

like be present and receive the benefits

of what that collaboration is.

00;40;14;00 - 00;40;17;24

So I think that rejecting both of those,

understanding the relationship,

00;40;17;24 - 00;40;22;26

based nature of humanity's,

relationship to technology,

00;40;23;10 - 00;40;27;25

that's where we can actually create

a sustainable road forward in shaping it.

00;40;28;06 - 00;40;31;11

So, so I guess that would be

that would be what I would say.

00;40;32;14 - 00;40;33;27

Oh, yeah. And the other thing, like it's.

00;40;33;27 - 00;40;36;06

Yeah, the

the other thing I would add is like

00;40;36;06 - 00;40;39;14

the education piece also comes into it

because even like, no matter what,

00;40;39;15 - 00;40;43;18

like I, I've stayed up to date,

to a large degree on the issues

00;40;43;18 - 00;40;47;14

that are arising and every single time

I hear about this intractable problem,

00;40;47;14 - 00;40;50;15

I immediately think about the three people

have told me a way

00;40;50;15 - 00;40;54;15

to solve that very specific problem, and,

and these different ideas.

00;40;54;15 - 00;40;57;14

So it's like Daniel Kwan

and when, you know, one of the producers,

00;40;57;14 - 00;41;00;18

the film in our work at the Creators

Coalition has pointed out that, like, what

00;41;00;18 - 00;41;03;19

this time demands of,

people who care about

00;41;04;11 - 00;41;06;26

the future is radical imagination.

00;41;06;26 - 00;41;08;24

So when it comes to the point

that Charlie made about,

00;41;08;24 - 00;41;12;05

I mean, the idea of companies being so big

that they want to pay the fines

00;41;12;05 - 00;41;15;21

instead of actually fix the problem

that goes back decades, if not centuries.

00;41;17;15 - 00;41;18;16

Figuring out what are the

00;41;18;16 - 00;41;22;06

actual pain points for those corporations,

like is the job of people in government.

00;41;22;06 - 00;41;27;03

So, for example, with with social media,

why not instead of,

00;41;27;03 - 00;41;30;25

you know, fining them,

you impose a latency tax where,

00;41;30;26 - 00;41;34;16

their page loads, loads incrementally

slower for every violation of our norms.

00;41;34;19 - 00;41;37;24

Because they lose a tremendous

amount of revenue by the microsecond.

00;41;37;28 - 00;41;40;28

And they also know that they lose users

if their site goes slow.

00;41;41;01 - 00;41;43;20

That's actually something

that regulators could do.

00;41;43;20 - 00;41;44;21

There are actually people

00;41;44;21 - 00;41;46;07

who are currently talking

to states, attorneys

00;41;46;07 - 00;41;49;02

general about how to actually codify

that into law.

00;41;49;02 - 00;41;53;23

These are all things where if you I mean,

figuring out how to get a or I right

00;41;54;25 - 00;41;58;29

will be significantly easier than removing

leaded gasoline from the world.

00;41;58;29 - 00;42;02;24

But we did that, you know, like

it's these things where like,

00;42;04;11 - 00;42;05;05

you know, the fourth act of

00;42;05;05 - 00;42;08;05

the film really highlights

the times in the past

00;42;08;11 - 00;42;11;21

where we as a society,

I mean, the entire purpose of law

00;42;12;16 - 00;42;16;18

is for us to determine as a populace

what we want to happen

00;42;16;18 - 00;42;19;29

and then to put mechanisms in place

so that they are encouraged to happen.

00;42;19;29 - 00;42;23;02

I'm not saying that they will,

but between public pressure,

00;42;23;02 - 00;42;26;15

between actually having, regulation

that moves at the speed of technology,

00;42;27;02 - 00;42;30;03

the path is actually really clear

to how to create that change,

00;42;30;13 - 00;42;33;11

whether we'll do it or not. I have

00;42;33;11 - 00;42;36;01

I have different amounts of confidence

based off of,

00;42;36;01 - 00;42;39;00

the weather

and the way that wind blows that day.

00;42;39;06 - 00;42;42;10

But my belief that it is

possible has never gone away.

00;42;44;25 - 00;42;46;19

So maybe on that note,

00;42;46;19 - 00;42;50;29

you know, to to take the more positive

approach again, having learned everything

00;42;50;29 - 00;42;55;05

that you learned and, and now being more

embedded in this, you know, in this world,

00;42;55;23 - 00;42;58;23

what what do you see that gives you hope,

00;42;59;02 - 00;43;01;00

you know,

and I'll ask that question to both of you.

00;43;01;00 - 00;43;02;14

You know, what makes you hopeful?

00;43;02;14 - 00;43;03;22

And what are some of the signs

00;43;03;22 - 00;43;07;12

that we may be actually going

in a better direction than you thought of?

00;43;07;12 - 00;43;08;13

You know, two years ago.

00;43;13;04 - 00;43;13;27

not only

00;43;13;27 - 00;43;17;04

is my baseline quite anxious,

but it's quite cynical

00;43;17;13 - 00;43;20;13

and, negative also.

00;43;20;13 - 00;43;25;01

But I guess what I will say is, you know,

00;43;26;01 - 00;43;30;26

this this was a space that just like

I said, in all the hyperbole

00;43;30;26 - 00;43;35;04

that was associated with it back

in, you know, summer fall 2023,

00;43;36;09 - 00;43;40;11

it seems like we've been talking about

seemed like an inevitability.

00;43;40;11 - 00;43;42;22

It seemed like that

something that was just barreling through

00;43;42;22 - 00;43;47;24

and there was no getting out of the way,

or stopping it.

00;43;48;08 - 00;43;51;07

And I know that even some of our subjects

in our film

00;43;51;20 - 00;43;54;20

reinforce that belief.

00;43;55;18 - 00;43;58;18

But what I am starting to see now, in

small ways,

00;43;58;28 - 00;44;02;11

is that work is yielding results

00;44;02;18 - 00;44;06;06

in terms of,

things like what CCI is doing

00;44;06;16 - 00;44;10;29

and some of the other coalitions

and organizations and, and kind of

00;44;11;06 - 00;44;14;11

right now it is more

so in the space of discussions

00;44;14;12 - 00;44;18;26

and thoughts and kind of, you know,

00;44;20;05 - 00;44;22;08

conceptualizing the directions that we can

00;44;22;08 - 00;44;25;08

and take this

and what we should prioritize.

00;44;26;07 - 00;44;29;28

But you're starting to see

and feel that organization that is moving

00;44;29;28 - 00;44;33;21

towards the collective good

I do, despite my cynicism and negativity

00;44;34;01 - 00;44;37;06

and depressive disorder,

I do believe in collective good.

00;44;37;16 - 00;44;43;13

You know, I,

I do think that, human nature.

00;44;43;13 - 00;44;46;13

Well, there are people who

00;44;46;21 - 00;44;50;09

do lots of shitty things and seem to,

00;44;50;24 - 00;44;56;01

have 1,000,001 reasons

to do those things that they believe in.

00;44;56;28 - 00;44;59;10

That's not the majority of people.

00;44;59;10 - 00;45;01;21

A lot of people are

00;45;01;21 - 00;45;04;21

focused on trying

to live a happy and peaceful life.

00;45;04;27 - 00;45;08;12

And when you challenge that happiness

in that peace,

00;45;08;23 - 00;45;11;23

people have the capability to,

00;45;13;28 - 00;45;15;22

resist and redirect

00;45;15;22 - 00;45;18;09

to, to maintain that happiness and peace.

00;45;18;09 - 00;45;21;02

And, I know I'm talking big

00;45;21;02 - 00;45;24;13

lofty terms right now, but but I,

00;45;25;04 - 00;45;29;12

I am seeing that a lot of people

are starting to focus, not not just the,

00;45;30;08 - 00;45;33;22

the most intelligent people in the world

on either side of this technology in

00;45;33;26 - 00;45;37;03

the labs are thinking about this

general population

00;45;37;03 - 00;45;40;21

is starting to think about this now

too, and and involve themselves.

00;45;40;21 - 00;45;43;05

And that's what's needed.

00;45;43;05 - 00;45;46;05

And that is just so encouraging

to see happening to see,

00;45;46;22 - 00;45;50;10

because I feel like going back to 2023,

more people, including myself

00;45;50;10 - 00;45;53;19

some degree, were very willfully

keeping their heads in the sand.

00;45;53;29 - 00;45;54;29

And now there's a

00;45;54;29 - 00;45;58;21

more of an adoption of the acceptance

that that's not going to work this time.

00;45;58;21 - 00;46;00;08

This isn't something

that you can just ignore.

00;46;00;08 - 00;46;01;25

It's going to go away or going to pass.

00;46;01;25 - 00;46;03;18

It needs it needs our interaction.

00;46;04;20 - 00;46;07;22

Well, it feels like it come it's coming

back to that sort of education piece.

00;46;07;22 - 00;46;10;29

And, you know, whether it's us

as individuals understanding it better,

00;46;11;00 - 00;46;12;07

whether it's just enough

00;46;12;07 - 00;46;16;07

time elapsing that we have a better sense

of how this is playing out

00;46;16;07 - 00;46;20;00

and how it might play out versus,

you know, when it's so new, it's just,

00;46;20;28 - 00;46;22;10

you know,

we don't know where it's going to go.

00;46;22;10 - 00;46;24;11

And I'm curious for you, Charlie.

00;46;24;11 - 00;46;27;29

You know, as you said,

you and Daniel were both,

00;46;27;29 - 00;46;32;15

going to be fathers

when, when this started

00;46;32;15 - 00;46;33;28

and now are on the other side of that.

00;46;33;28 - 00;46;35;28

And so I'm curious, you know,

you mentioned that,

00;46;35;28 - 00;46;39;01

you know, you're a cynic and tend to have,

like, a depressive view of these things.

00;46;40;05 - 00;46;43;18

The combination of now, I guess,

being on the other side of fatherhood,

00;46;43;18 - 00;46;48;06

where you've got a kid being farther

down the line with AI, more educated,

00;46;49;03 - 00;46;53;01

did both of those things

together, sort of, you know,

00;46;53;01 - 00;46;56;28

potentially enable you

to view it in a less

00;46;56;28 - 00;46;59;28

alarmist, less dreadful way.

00;47;01;11 - 00;47;05;13

No. But

but but but in in an informed know

00;47;05;17 - 00;47;08;22

which is to say and Jeff, I know that

00;47;08;22 - 00;47;11;22

you're a father as well.

00;47;11;25 - 00;47;14;20

One of your main things

going into fatherhood, at least for me,

00;47;14;20 - 00;47;19;26

was knowing that I'm going to have

especially I have a son.

00;47;20;16 - 00;47;21;12

I'm a man.

00;47;21;12 - 00;47;25;04

I grew up as a boy, you know, so I know

00;47;25;04 - 00;47;29;13

some of the boyhood experiences

that he's more than likely going to face.

00;47;29;22 - 00;47;32;26

And I know how I was able to handle them

and comprehend.

00;47;32;26 - 00;47;35;01

So you kind of have that leverage

00;47;35;01 - 00;47;38;01

as a parent to know that there's

going to be a shared experience here

00;47;38;08 - 00;47;42;06

where I may be able to step in and help,

or step in and guide

00;47;42;06 - 00;47;44;07

or step in and go like, hey,

this thing that you're really worrying

00;47;44;07 - 00;47;46;25

about, like, it's

actually not that big of a deal.

00;47;46;25 - 00;47;50;01

Like, you can fail that you can fill

your fifth grade math test.

00;47;50;01 - 00;47;52;06

It doesn't matter in the long run.

00;47;52;06 - 00;47;55;21

You know, things like that,

the kind of reassurances that are

00;47;55;21 - 00;47;59;02

needed to navigate, you know,

00;48;00;05 - 00;48;00;28

childhood and

00;48;00;28 - 00;48;03;28

adolescence and young adulthood,

00;48;05;04 - 00;48;08;15

but the thing is, with this technology

and it's adoption

00;48;08;24 - 00;48;11;24

that, you know, is happening,

00;48;12;05 - 00;48;15;16

the world that he's grown up in, in a lot

of ways is going to be very different.

00;48;15;19 - 00;48;17;28

You know, normally

that that's been kind of the story

00;48;17;28 - 00;48;19;24

from generation to generation

is just that.

00;48;19;24 - 00;48;21;11

The world that, you know, your

00;48;21;11 - 00;48;23;25

your parents grew up in

is different from your world.

00;48;23;25 - 00;48;27;10

But there's a historically, there's been

a little bit more of a stretch,

00;48;27;24 - 00;48;30;06

you know, like some of the biggest ones

in the last hundred years.

00;48;30;06 - 00;48;31;06

Or like,

00;48;31;06 - 00;48;34;28

I can remember hearing from elders

and grandparents about knowing people

00;48;34;28 - 00;48;38;23

who grew up without plumbing or knowing

people who grew up without electricity.

00;48;39;06 - 00;48;42;06

Those transitions took many, many decades.

00;48;42;14 - 00;48;43;25

But the transitions

that we're going through

00;48;43;25 - 00;48;46;25

now with this adoption of technology

is happening.

00;48;46;26 - 00;48;49;26

You know, a lot of it's happened

in my toddler's lifespan.

00;48;49;26 - 00;48;53;25

So there is so much more that heat

that the world is going to change into

00;48;54;05 - 00;48;57;05

that I just won't have familiarity with.

00;48;57;06 - 00;49;00;08

So he's going to be on his own

for some of that stuff.

00;49;00;12 - 00;49;02;14

And it sucks.

00;49;02;14 - 00;49;04;12

And I'm not fully surrendering to it.

00;49;04;12 - 00;49;09;05

But I'm my job is to do my best

to keep up and keep informed

00;49;09;14 - 00;49;13;21

and also allow him to teach me things,

because the way that the world is,

00;49;13;21 - 00;49;16;01

is not the way that the world was

when I need it. So I'm

00;49;16;01 - 00;49;19;17

I'm less of an authority on the world

probably than his life will be.

00;49;20;14 - 00;49;22;13

So to answer your question, no.

00;49;22;13 - 00;49;25;29

But no. That way, and it's not all bad.

00;49;26;00 - 00;49;28;02

It's just kind of an acceptance

00;49;28;02 - 00;49;32;13

that's required to understand that

rather than hold on to.

00;49;32;13 - 00;49;34;22

And we've seen this from from boomers

to millennials.

00;49;34;22 - 00;49;37;29

Like there's a belief that,

oh, if you just go out and work really

00;49;37;29 - 00;49;41;19

hard, you'll make enough money

to buy a house and buy a car and retire.

00;49;41;29 - 00;49;44;08

And that world doesn't exist anymore.

00;49;44;08 - 00;49;45;19

It's the same degree.

00;49;45;19 - 00;49;49;13

You know, it's painful for my generation

to accept that, but boomers

00;49;49;13 - 00;49;52;28

kind of seem

to collectively refuse to accept that.

00;49;53;10 - 00;49;56;21

So I know that they're going to have

to be things about his world that will

00;49;57;26 - 00;49;59;27

cause friction with my beliefs

and understand the world

00;49;59;27 - 00;50;01;10

that I just have to accept.

00;50;01;10 - 00;50;04;10

So sorry, a complete

00;50;04;21 - 00;50;06;13

Well, but it.

00;50;06;13 - 00;50;07;02

Yeah.

00;50;07;02 - 00;50;11;19

And then it feels like a very mature

position and, you know, in some ways

00;50;11;19 - 00;50;15;12

a very Zen position almost because,

you know, to the point you made.

00;50;16;07 - 00;50;20;21

Yeah, the world is going to change

in unforeseeable ways that make it

00;50;20;21 - 00;50;24;09

more difficult for you to provide guidance

to, you know, the next generation.

00;50;24;09 - 00;50;26;24

But, you know, to the same point you made.

00;50;26;24 - 00;50;30;10

Maybe that's just the same world

we've been in all along,

00;50;30;18 - 00;50;34;24

and now we just have the ability

to introspect

00;50;34;24 - 00;50;36;16

a little bit better and recognize that.

00;50;36;16 - 00;50;39;16

And I don't know, maybe like, this is me.

00;50;40;28 - 00;50;43;11

Yeah.

00;50;43;11 - 00;50;45;11

Well,

and maybe this is too optimistic of me,

00;50;45;11 - 00;50;50;27

but but maybe that recognition alone,

you know, is worth something, right?

00;50;50;27 - 00;50;54;12

It it positions

us better as parents to be able to,

00;50;54;20 - 00;50;57;17

you know, know our own limits

and not just keep giving the same

00;50;57;17 - 00;51;00;18

annoying, outdated guidance

that we got from our parents.

00;51;01;07 - 00;51;03;09

One on the best.

00;51;03;09 - 00;51;05;29

This is kind of related,

but it was a comedian's joke

00;51;05;29 - 00;51;08;02

where he was talking about

when you have kids

00;51;08;02 - 00;51;11;05

and your parents come to step in

and try and help.

00;51;11;05 - 00;51;15;02

And he's like, imagine

someone working at a company 35 years ago

00;51;15;13 - 00;51;19;14

coming to work at that same company again,

and kind of how obsolete they are

00;51;19;14 - 00;51;23;03

and their methods, like it's

that kind of thing, but just a little bit

00;51;23;17 - 00;51;24;03

faster.

00;51;24;03 - 00;51;28;09

And like, I'm going to start to feel old

and in the way

00;51;28;09 - 00;51;32;10

a lot sooner than, a parent

maybe normally would.

00;51;32;21 - 00;51;34;18

Probably when he's ten.

00;51;36;11 - 00;51;37;19

No, I totally get it.

00;51;37;19 - 00;51;40;02

Ted. We.

00;51;40;02 - 00;51;42;26

So Charlie and I took quite a journey

there, and I loved every minute of it,

00;51;42;26 - 00;51;43;19

but I'm.

00;51;43;19 - 00;51;44;27

curious from your perspective.

00;51;44;27 - 00;51;46;24

You know, as you look forward,

as you think about,

00;51;46;24 - 00;51;48;09

you know, what you've learned.

00;51;48;09 - 00;51;52;16

If it has changed your overall posture

toward this, you know, toward AI

00;51;52;16 - 00;51;53;09

and where it may go.

00;51;53;09 - 00;51;56;05

And you know, what gives you hope?

00;51;56;05 - 00;52;00;13

Oh, I mean, I,

I think, You know, being a kid, it was.

00;52;00;20 - 00;52;03;25

I'm old enough to remember

what Pre-social media was like,

00;52;04;13 - 00;52;10;13

and, I am young enough

so that technology is, like, by and large,

00;52;10;23 - 00;52;13;22

had an enormously positive impact

on my life.

00;52;14;06 - 00;52;17;00

And so,

00;52;17;00 - 00;52;20;00

those two things

I think are in constant conflict

00;52;20;14 - 00;52;23;07

and what really investigating

00;52;23;07 - 00;52;25;26

I as a subject has taught me

00;52;25;26 - 00;52;28;14

is that there are people,

00;52;28;14 - 00;52;31;29

who really do want this to go well

00;52;32;12 - 00;52;35;29

and who are literally dedicating

their life to making sure that it goes

00;52;35;29 - 00;52;41;07

well and that some of those people

are doing things

00;52;41;20 - 00;52;47;11

that will likely have a positive impact,

and that some of those people

00;52;47;17 - 00;52;50;21

are doing things

that actively are having negative effects.

00;52;51;00 - 00;52;54;04

It's sort of the old writing,

piece of advice is

00;52;54;14 - 00;52;57;21

you need to make sure that your villains

believe that they are the heroes.

00;52;58;00 - 00;53;00;26

Like, that's the most important part

about writing a villain.

00;53;00;26 - 00;53;02;24

And what I would say in this,

00;53;04;08 - 00;53;07;08

in this entire subject,

00;53;09;00 - 00;53;12;00

It's really important,

I think, to have confidence,

00;53;12;02 - 00;53;14;10

in your values

00;53;14;10 - 00;53;17;15

and in the things that you think

are really important in your life and to,

00;53;17;16 - 00;53;20;26

to, to be, you know, looking at

and investigating those things,

00;53;20;26 - 00;53;24;07

whether or not you're a parent, whether

or not you're a partner of someone.

00;53;24;23 - 00;53;28;23

And it's also really important

to have intellectual humility

00;53;28;23 - 00;53;31;23

when it comes to the subject of technology

writ large,

00;53;32;08 - 00;53;35;08

because each, you know,

whether you're talking about,

00;53;35;22 - 00;53;38;14

you know, autonomous weaponry,

whether you're talking about

00;53;38;14 - 00;53;41;04

AI's deployment in health care,

whether or not you're talking about

00;53;41;04 - 00;53;44;24

algorithmic bias and institutional racism

and how that's perpetuated

00;53;44;24 - 00;53;46;03

by these systems.

00;53;46;03 - 00;53;49;00

Each one of these subjects

is a big enough thing, so

00;53;49;00 - 00;53;53;02

that if you approach it from a standpoint

of you being sure that you're right,

00;53;54;00 - 00;53;56;05

I find that,

00;53;56;05 - 00;53;59;05

that's a very difficult way

to make progress.

00;53;59;12 - 00;54;02;14

And so I think that the thing that gives

me hope

00;54;03;04 - 00;54;05;16

is people's rigor

00;54;05;16 - 00;54;08;16

in their intention to do well.

00;54;09;06 - 00;54;11;18

And I think

00;54;11;18 - 00;54;14;21

that given

the results, that society is sort of,

00;54;16;19 - 00;54;19;20

seen from

social media and the polarization and the,

00;54;19;28 - 00;54;23;14

the fact that even just saying,

I don't know or hey, you know what?

00;54;23;14 - 00;54;26;27

I think you might be right, are things

that we almost never hear anymore.

00;54;28;07 - 00;54;30;24

Those are the challenge

that we have to face.

00;54;30;24 - 00;54;32;24

But I think that,

00;54;32;24 - 00;54;33;19

like, the thing that gives me

00;54;33;19 - 00;54;37;01

hope is I feel like we're

all just really tired of that bullshit.

00;54;37;16 - 00;54;40;27

And I think that the voices that I hear

and that I listen to,

00;54;41;09 - 00;54;46;00

are, are really ready to, collaborate.

00;54;46;12 - 00;54;48;05

So Ted, I love that answer.

00;54;48;05 - 00;54;49;27

And I think it makes a ton of sense to me.

00;54;49;27 - 00;54;51;00

I'm curious.

00;54;51;00 - 00;54;52;05

You know, on that note, as you talk

00;54;52;05 - 00;54;55;24

about voices, influential voices

around the space in your life,

00;54;55;24 - 00;54;58;24

I mean, you guys have had the advent

of speaking to so many people,

00;54;58;29 - 00;55;00;24

of hearing so much commentary.

00;55;00;24 - 00;55;02;01

And, you know, I know as filmmakers,

00;55;02;01 - 00;55;04;20

you try and be objective,

as objective as possible,

00;55;04;20 - 00;55;07;20

but I'm sure you have your own,

you know, individual thoughts on,

00;55;07;21 - 00;55;11;13

you know, who shared the most wisdom, who,

you know, really informed your view,

00;55;11;13 - 00;55;15;26

and you wish you could spend more time

with for for viewers listening to this

00;55;15;26 - 00;55;19;20

who are, you know, trying to tune out

some of the noise and figure out where

00;55;19;20 - 00;55;20;25

the signal really is.

00;55;21;27 - 00;55;22;08

You know, do

00;55;22;08 - 00;55;26;01

you each have 1 or 2 people

that you spoke with that you think, man,

00;55;26;01 - 00;55;29;08

I really I would have loved

to spend more time with them.

00;55;29;08 - 00;55;31;19

Or if people are just getting their feet

wet in the space,

00;55;31;19 - 00;55;35;27

you should really go and hunt out

conversations with with these people

00;55;35;27 - 00;55;36;26

because they're really going

00;55;36;26 - 00;55;39;26

to, you know, change the way

you think in a positive way.

00;55;40;22 - 00;55;42;09

Karen. How is the big one for me?

00;55;42;09 - 00;55;46;24

She's just much more with the

00;55;47;14 - 00;55;51;15

the good balance of being one of the most

informed people, but also having,

00;55;52;07 - 00;55;55;07

it became kind of clear,

00;55;55;15 - 00;55;58;15

making the subjects

that they just were so rooted in

00;55;58;23 - 00;56;01;01

within the tech bubble

and within that world,

00;56;01;01 - 00;56;02;21

and maybe not knowing life outside of it.

00;56;02;21 - 00;56;06;24

And Karen was just,

just more well-rounded as a human being.

00;56;06;24 - 00;56;10;20

And, her book is, is,

00;56;11;14 - 00;56;14;24

a good reco as well.

00;56;14;24 - 00;56;16;23

So that's my book.

00;56;16;23 - 00;56;17;02

Yeah.

00;56;17;02 - 00;56;19;00

And and it sounds like it's

because she brings that

00;56;19;00 - 00;56;22;27

groundedness that a lot of these people

don't necessarily have.

00;56;23;10 - 00;56;24;13

And you know,

00;56;25;22 - 00;56;26;19

the way her interview

00;56;26;19 - 00;56;31;15

was is just very similar

to the way her book Empire of AI is,

00;56;31;15 - 00;56;36;18

which is just it's it's not without hope

and possibility.

00;56;36;23 - 00;56;41;03

Of of outcomes that do benefit

00;56;41;27 - 00;56;44;18

human beings rather than

00;56;44;18 - 00;56;46;25

it being just a growing problem.

00;56;46;25 - 00;56;48;07

Yeah, I had the same answer.

00;56;48;07 - 00;56;48;16

Karen.

00;56;48;16 - 00;56;51;24

How for me, is is top of the list.

00;56;52;03 - 00;56;53;06

Deborah Raji as well.

00;56;53;06 - 00;56;56;29

It was, the thing I really love

and appreciate about Deborah

00;56;56;29 - 00;57;00;04

is that not only is she an outstanding

researcher, she's an outstanding advocate.

00;57;00;12 - 00;57;03;29

And also just the amount of, like, joy,

00;57;03;29 - 00;57;07;27

that she brings to her work

is, like, it's contagious.

00;57;07;27 - 00;57;10;15

And I think that's

a really important thing.

00;57;10;15 - 00;57;14;05

I think about emotions as being potential

energy and action being kinetic energy.

00;57;14;05 - 00;57;17;04

So regardless of,

you know, where you're drawing that those

00;57;17;19 - 00;57;22;18

what emotions are driving you to, to be,

working in the work that you're doing?

00;57;22;18 - 00;57;26;22

Like, it's just so clear,

from all the people that we interviewed,

00;57;26;22 - 00;57;31;02

is that, like I said, they're they're

they're engaged and they're motivated.

00;57;32;00 - 00;57;32;21

But in terms of,

00;57;32;21 - 00;57;35;23

like you would say,

I think that the center of center

00;57;35;24 - 00;57;39;05

for Humane Technology

does outstanding work, in this area.

00;57;39;05 - 00;57;42;16

I mean, all of the it's hard

to just choose one.

00;57;42;16 - 00;57;47;20

But, if I had to recommend,

you know, someone doing a deep dive

00;57;47;20 - 00;57;51;05

with any of our subjects, I think Karen

Howe would probably be top of the list.

00;57;53;04 - 00;57;53;18

Awesome.

00;57;53;18 - 00;57;57;06

I'm, I'm surprised and impressed

that you guys came to a consensus on that.

00;57;57;06 - 00;58;01;10

That's, a huge feather in the cap of

Karen who's who's, you know, great.

00;58;01;10 - 00;58;02;27

By the way.

00;58;02;27 - 00;58;05;15

Caroline Lundy, who is, is Daniel's wife.

00;58;05;15 - 00;58;07;28

I think that she's an Through.

00;58;07;28 - 00;58;09;11

with a lot.

00;58;09;11 - 00;58;13;23

I I, She kind of is.

00;58;13;23 - 00;58;17;18

As someone who went into the film

not knowing her, I really appreciated her.

00;58;18;01 - 00;58;21;04

Yeah, you can kind of feel her steady

hand on the wheel in some ways.

00;58;21;04 - 00;58;24;10

And, like,

steering a steering the narrative.

00;58;24;27 - 00;58;28;08

if I would, if I, if I could add,

the this person was behind these,

00;58;28;12 - 00;58;29;15

these people were behind the camera.

00;58;29;15 - 00;58;32;09

But all all the producers

are exceptionally brilliant people.

00;58;32;09 - 00;58;36;23

But really, as far as somebody

who has their eye on, on sort of the

00;58;36;23 - 00;58;40;13

the philosophical side of humanity,

humanity's relationship

00;58;40;13 - 00;58;43;21

to technology, Daniel Kwan is really

a very special person in that regard.

00;58;43;21 - 00;58;45;20

And I would add, Shane Borris there,

00;58;46;28 - 00;58;49;05

you know,

there were five producers on this film.

00;58;49;05 - 00;58;51;00

There were two directors,

there were two editors.

00;58;51;00 - 00;58;55;01

There was a story producer, a co-producer,

an associate producer, all of whom

00;58;55;01 - 00;59;00;19

were just trying to all get our arms

wide enough to wrap around this subject.

00;59;01;01 - 00;59;04;00

And, is that a source for Charlie?

00;59;04;00 - 00;59;07;00

What do you got there?

00;59;08;19 - 00;59;10;04

The, Yeah.

00;59;10;04 - 00;59;13;05

I mean, it's just everybody had such

invaluable input, but, like, it's also

00;59;13;05 - 00;59;16;11

just, you know,

Daniel Kwan's a special person, like,

00;59;16;21 - 00;59;19;11

he's,

00;59;19;11 - 00;59;20;07

I'll just leave it at that.

00;59;20;07 - 00;59;21;22

I think that if you have the opportunity

to listen

00;59;21;22 - 00;59;23;27

to the things that he says about anything,

you ought to,

00;59;23;27 - 00;59;27;20

but specifically about this

subject is like he has a deep, deep belief

00;59;27;20 - 00;59;31;21

in, our capacity to come together

and to make this right.

00;59;31;21 - 00;59;33;13

And he's also very good at

00;59;33;13 - 00;59;37;06

actually backing that up with finding

the people and the ways to do that.

00;59;39;04 - 00;59;39;23

That's awesome.

00;59;39;23 - 00;59;42;24

And I'm I'm just chuckling, Charlie,

because I was saying earlier

00;59;42;24 - 00;59;44;20

I was like, there's no way

we'll hear the construction.

00;59;44;20 - 00;59;47;27

There's no way that it just

it just cuts through loud and clear.

00;59;49;09 - 00;59;51;10

It's all good.

00;59;51;10 - 00;59;53;24

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;59;53;24 - 00;59;56;16

He he's operating it. Yeah.

00;59;56;16 - 00;59;59;01

reciprocating or what do you call a,

00;59;59;01 - 01;00;02;01

There's a Zegler

01;00;02;05 - 01;00;05;05

is a Ziegler and is Edgar.

01;00;07;11 - 01;00;08;08

Awesome.

01;00;08;08 - 01;00;10;26

So so as we,

you know, start to wrap things up here.

01;00;10;26 - 01;00;11;09

You know, for

01;00;11;09 - 01;00;13;10

for anyone who's listening to this,

whether you're a business leader

01;00;13;10 - 01;00;17;10

or whether you're someone who's starting

to get your hands on, you know, AI tools

01;00;17;10 - 01;00;21;04

start to use this technology

and want to have some sort of, I guess,

01;00;22;15 - 01;00;24;06

ability to do this responsibly,

01;00;24;06 - 01;00;27;20

to do it in a way

that's going to be productive, you know,

01;00;27;26 - 01;00;31;21

what are your sort of recommendations for

people to, to, you know, think about this

01;00;31;21 - 01;00;34;27

and how they can be better

and more effective in this space.

01;00;35;22 - 01;00;37;05

And, Charlie, maybe I'll start with you.

01;00;38;19 - 01;00;39;25

I don't know if I

01;00;39;25 - 01;00;43;27

can advocate for a particular tool

because,

01;00;45;14 - 01;00;47;20

for me,

01;00;47;20 - 01;00;50;15

before using anything,

01;00;50;15 - 01;00;52;25

let's say if I'm just working on

an individual level.

01;00;52;25 - 01;00;54;29

Oh, I want to, like,

01;00;54;29 - 01;00;57;28

I'm, I'm writing an email to a colleague.

01;00;57;28 - 01;01;01;24

I want to spruce it

up, proofread it, find a way to clarify

01;01;01;24 - 01;01;06;00

my thoughts and my my goals of

of maybe what I'm asking them.

01;01;06;28 - 01;01;09;13

I always really,

01;01;09;13 - 01;01;12;29

you know, make the effort to ask, like,

okay, can I do this myself?

01;01;12;29 - 01;01;15;25

And if the answer is yes, try doing that.

01;01;15;25 - 01;01;16;03

Yeah.

01;01;16;03 - 01;01;19;07

Of course, sometimes

you're under a time crunch and you need to

01;01;19;07 - 01;01;22;21

just get your thing done, so whatever.

01;01;22;21 - 01;01;25;05

Maybe. But

01;01;25;05 - 01;01;30;03

I really do try to ask

if if I'm replacing myself in my own

01;01;30;03 - 01;01;34;09

critical thinking and cognition first

and if that's necessary.

01;01;36;12 - 01;01;39;07

And that usually the answer is like,

yeah you can.

01;01;39;07 - 01;01;40;02

So don't use it.

01;01;40;02 - 01;01;43;19

That's so, so,

so I don't know if I can advocate

01;01;43;19 - 01;01;47;11

for a particular tool right now.

01;01;51;11 - 01;01;52;29

GPT for a minute was really good at

01;01;52;29 - 01;01;56;05

finding discount codes for online stores,

and that doesn't seem to work anymore.

01;01;56;05 - 01;02;00;12

So that would be the only one I would,

you know, be able to go for it.

01;02;00;12 - 01;02;03;12

But, it doesn't seem to work anymore.

01;02;04;03 - 01;02;05;15

Know.

01;02;05;15 - 01;02;07;25

Sorry. Go ahead. Ted,

01;02;07;25 - 01;02;10;25

you know, I was.

01;02;11;13 - 01;02;11;28

Well, whoa.

01;02;11;28 - 01;02;13;20

Yeah, I mean, I I'm just going to say

01;02;13;20 - 01;02;16;00

it sounds like Charlie the,

you know, the feedback

01;02;16;00 - 01;02;20;11

there is to be extremely intentional

with this stuff and not to just use this

01;02;20;11 - 01;02;22;06

because you feel like

you're supposed to use it,

01;02;22;06 - 01;02;25;19

but make sure that there's

actually some sort of value

01;02;25;19 - 01;02;28;25

in mind versus

just I'm using this as a shortcut.

01;02;30;05 - 01;02;33;12

overly lazy, then

you're not going to develop as a person.

01;02;33;12 - 01;02;36;01

And sometimes that's your communication

skills with other people.

01;02;36;01 - 01;02;40;09

And sometimes it's your

your craft, your work, your profession.

01;02;40;13 - 01;02;44;27

You know, I really am actively

01;02;45;12 - 01;02;48;12

working to resist this culture

01;02;49;04 - 01;02;53;11

of over optimization

and over productivity and get things,

01;02;53;26 - 01;02;57;18

you know, done on this

super fast timeline, because it took me,

01;02;57;19 - 01;03;01;01

you know, most of the years of my life

to realize that

01;03;02;03 - 01;03;04;16

I'm going to go at my own pace,

01;03;04;16 - 01;03;07;16

and that doesn't mean my pace is wrong.

01;03;07;29 - 01;03;10;18

You know,

I think all of us on the production

01;03;10;18 - 01;03;13;27

have ADHD, and I have a version of it too.

01;03;13;27 - 01;03;15;23

I've joked that I have the Honda

Civic version

01;03;15;23 - 01;03;18;23

because I can still get things done,

but it just

01;03;19;04 - 01;03;22;25

it is very, non sensational.

01;03;23;09 - 01;03;26;18

And anyways,

01;03;27;27 - 01;03;28;29

it's just

01;03;28;29 - 01;03;32;14

really kind of knowing yourself

and knowing your timeline and knowing

01;03;32;14 - 01;03;36;07

what's a reasonable pace for yourself

rather than trying to always keep up.

01;03;37;27 - 01;03;41;03

Because, yeah, you may end up poor and,

01;03;41;05 - 01;03;45;14

and all that,

but you'll be more balanced.

01;03;45;20 - 01;03;48;24

And like I said,

I spoke about anxiety a few times,

01;03;49;16 - 01;03;52;06

on this, but but trying to keep pace.

01;03;52;06 - 01;03;54;26

That's just, it feeds anxiety.

01;03;54;26 - 01;03;58;24

And then that just makes you less stable

as a person and less happy as a person.

01;03;58;24 - 01;04;03;10

So I'd rather be happy and stable

or at least pursue that.

01;04;04;11 - 01;04;08;07

I, I really appreciate that perspective,

and I think it's very well said.

01;04;08;07 - 01;04;09;24

Don't get caught in this,

01;04;09;24 - 01;04;12;09

you know, sort of race to the bottom

with using these tools

01;04;12;09 - 01;04;14;16

that, you know, just

ends up harming yourself.

01;04;15;14 - 01;04;18;14

Ted. What do you want out on the subject?

01;04;19;03 - 01;04;22;13

there's there's a really important problem

to highlight, which I call the software

01;04;22;13 - 01;04;25;15

as a service addiction model problem,

which is essentially right now,

01;04;25;15 - 01;04;29;03

what a lot of companies are doing are

they're replacing workers whose salaries

01;04;29;03 - 01;04;33;23

they can control with serve with AI agents

whose cost they can't control.

01;04;34;09 - 01;04;37;25

And this is a really,

really important distinction to make.

01;04;37;25 - 01;04;39;06

And this is where we get into

the idea of like,

01;04;39;06 - 01;04;40;29

what's the difference

between a tool and a service?

01;04;40;29 - 01;04;44;15

If I go to a Home Depot and I buy a hammer

and take it home, I can build anything

01;04;44;15 - 01;04;45;03

I want with that.

01;04;45;03 - 01;04;47;26

Home depot can't come and take that hammer

away from me.

01;04;47;26 - 01;04;51;23

They can't retroactively increase

the price of that hammer by 100 x.

01;04;52;07 - 01;04;57;12

What you're seeing with these companies is

they are intentionally using efficiency

01;04;57;19 - 01;05;01;09

and, reduced costs as a way to an insert,

01;05;01;18 - 01;05;06;03

their very addictive,

services to businesses

01;05;06;20 - 01;05;10;03

in the exact same way

that the big tech playbook has gone

01;05;10;03 - 01;05;13;14

with, you know, taxis and Uber that they

convince everybody, oh, you know what?

01;05;13;14 - 01;05;15;19

Leave your job, become part of the gig

economy.

01;05;15;19 - 01;05;17;17

Don't

you want to be an independent contractor?

01;05;17;17 - 01;05;19;03

We'll give you all these incentives.

01;05;19;03 - 01;05;20;22

And also as a customer, you don't want to

01;05;20;22 - 01;05;24;20

you don't want to pay that union taxi

driver or somebody with health benefits.

01;05;24;20 - 01;05;27;18

You want to do. Don't

you want to go to the airport for $20?

01;05;27;18 - 01;05;30;15

And then you fast forward,

use debt as a way to be able

01;05;30;15 - 01;05;33;15

to corner the market and addict people

to that business model.

01;05;33;16 - 01;05;36;16

And now it's $120

for me to get to the airport.

01;05;37;00 - 01;05;40;08

And the the worker is getting paid

less than he's ever been paid.

01;05;40;14 - 01;05;43;12

And the companies

are making a higher profit margin.

01;05;43;12 - 01;05;47;07

So specifically in any business,

but really in the creative industries,

01;05;48;05 - 01;05;52;17

what we're seeing is, you know,

the potential for a complete hollowing

01;05;52;17 - 01;05;56;16

out of the human beings that are capable

of doing the work without these services.

01;05;56;29 - 01;05;59;29

And when you've gotten to that point,

that's an addiction.

01;06;00;20 - 01;06;04;00

And so it's really important

if you're thinking about sustainability

01;06;04;00 - 01;06;05;05

as a business person,

01;06;05;05 - 01;06;08;19

just asking yourself the question,

is efficiency important enough

01;06;08;26 - 01;06;12;19

so that I'm willing to risk a company

or risk risk my livelihood

01;06;12;24 - 01;06;16;08

on a company that has shown

no reason why I should trust it?

01;06;16;24 - 01;06;20;25

And somewhat ironically, recently,

the CTO of Uber

01;06;21;18 - 01;06;25;03

pointed out that the coders

that they have at Uber are so reliant

01;06;25;03 - 01;06;30;00

on cloud code that they've used

their entire 2026 budget on tokens

01;06;30;18 - 01;06;31;16

I by the end of April.

01;06;32;20 - 01;06;35;28

And so then they haven't even increased

the cost, you know, like they recently

01;06;35;28 - 01;06;39;04

moved, I think the, the largest AI cloud

01;06;39;04 - 01;06;42;04

code from, the pro tier to the max tier.

01;06;42;09 - 01;06;43;28

So it goes from $20 to $200.

01;06;43;28 - 01;06;46;06

That's a tax increase, increase in cost.

01;06;46;06 - 01;06;50;03

So be very, very careful about the ways

01;06;50;03 - 01;06;53;05

that you are deploying these systems

and these services into your business,

01;06;53;23 - 01;06;56;09

because you might end up in a world

where you are

01;06;56;09 - 01;06;59;09

working for these

01;07;02;01 - 01;07;05;12

I think that is very wise

and very well said.

01;07;05;12 - 01;07;08;06

And I don't I don't have anything

intelligent to contribute to it.

01;07;08;06 - 01;07;11;25

And I appreciate both of your very

different answers to that question.

01;07;12;13 - 01;07;12;24

Charlie.

01;07;12;24 - 01;07;14;09

Ted, I wanted to say such a big

01;07;14;09 - 01;07;15;29

thank you to both of you

for coming on the show today.

01;07;15;29 - 01;07;18;13

It's been really interesting,

really insightful.

01;07;18;13 - 01;07;19;17

And I appreciate your insights.

01;07;19;17 - 01;07;24;02

For anybody who hasn't seen it,

the AI doc is an excellent movie.

01;07;24;02 - 01;07;28;21

It's an excellent way to learn more about,

you know, AI in the, space here.

01;07;28;21 - 01;07;30;02

So, check it out.

01;07;30;02 - 01;07;31;12

And I'm not just chilling it.

01;07;31;12 - 01;07;33;11

I have

I have seen it, and it is really good.

01;07;35;01 - 01;07;36;07

Thanks, gents.

01;07;36;07 - 01;07;39;07

Yeah. Thank you so much, Jeff.

01;07;39;12 - 01;07;43;15

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