Digital Disruption

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Hey, everyone.

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I'm super excited to be sitting down

with Cathy Hackl

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She has a reputation

as the godmother of the metaverse.

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And for being a leading thinker anywhere.

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Technology is coming out

of traditional devices like phones

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and entering our physical reality,

or even creating a whole new one.

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What's cool about Cathy

is that she has a behind the curtain view

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of some of the most cutting edge tech

being developed around the world.

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Look, I'll be honest, I'm a big metaverse

skeptic myself, and I've actually

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gotten on stage tell thousands of leaders

that I think the whole thing is B.S..

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I have to get this off my chest.

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I think that the metaverse is bullshit.

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I want to ask her

if I'm getting something wrong

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or I'm just looking in the wrong place.

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I want to know when

and how emerging technologies are going

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to enter our lives and our workplaces,

and what we need to do to be ready.

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Let's find out.

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Hey, Cathy,

thanks so much for joining today.

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I wanted to jump right in

and ask a little bit about,

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you know, that this area of space

that we traditionally

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call spatial computing,

the metaverse, extended reality.

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It feels like it's kind of growing

and changing these days.

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And there's been certainly

some exciting announcements in this space

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in the last handful of days and weeks.

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Has the way you think about it changed?

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And you know, what's

kind of most exciting to you right now?

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Yeah. I think it's an ever evolving space.

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It's interesting,

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cause a lot of people come to me and say

the metaverse is dead, right?

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in tech circles

as the godmother of the metaverse.

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I get that all the time.

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And I'm like, well,

the metaverse wasn't really here yet.

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it. So you can't kill something

that doesn't exist.

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It's more the hype, right? The off.

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What has changed for me,

I think, is some things haven't changed.

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I think a lot of what

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a lot of what I've learned

throughout the years working at companies

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like HTC Vive,

which did VR headsets, and Magic Leap,

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which did, you know, one of the earliest

spatial computing, computers out there.

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And I've got one right behind me

for anyone watching on, on video.

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What I learned in those companies

has not changed, which is the convergence

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of physical and virtual

that we're kind of gearing towards.

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That has not changed.

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I think maybe it's the way it's

being created or developed or the

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the importance of AI

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that future.

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I think

that has definitely been accelerated,

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or it was something that I thought about,

but obviously over the last few years

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has become the number one topic.

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So I think that's evolved.

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I will say the term metaverse,

even for me, has changed

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in the sense that I feel like

some people are maybe moving away

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from the term metaverse

in some ways to spatial web, more of that

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specialized web, a web, you know,

that expands into the physical world.

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And I know

we're going to talk more about this.

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I think what I'm seeing more people,

not more people, but more people

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starting to say, okay, maybe,

maybe the term isn't metaverse

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and maybe it's spatial web,

just like the information superhighway

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wasn't the right word.

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use internet or web now.

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So, so I think that there is that kind of

maybe those changes happening

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in kind of how we talk about this

potential future state.

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Cool.

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So let's maybe talk about

some of the emerging technologies

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that that have been announced recently.

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I'm thinking about things like,

you know, Google Beam, like XR, like,

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I don't know if it's actually pronounced

IO or IO.

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I guess I should have read up on that,

but, what what are those like?

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Can you maybe quickly just walk us through

what each of those technologies

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is and, you know, your

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excitement level and, you know,

kind of outlook for each of them.

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So with Google Beam, which used to be

called Google's Project Starlight.

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I actually got a demo of it

a couple of years ago.

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And to explain to people and I'm

going to try to explain to folks in words

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what it is. Right.

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It is pretty much a system where you,

where you're able to kind of have

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a communications with someone

that's not with you in the same place,

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but you see them in 3D

and in volumetric form.

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But there's no headset, right?

There's no headset.

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It's it's through. I and through cameras.

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So my experience was I walked into a room

and I sat behind a table.

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And in front of me is this,

like this screen of sorts?

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And I guess there's multiple cameras

and everything, but all of a sudden

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someone else sits across from me

in this virtual screen of sorts.

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But it's not a flat screen in the sense

that I'm actually able to see depth.

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And I'm actually able to see them in 3D,

Right.

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your brain and your eyes

a second to kind of, whoa, okay,

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I'm not wearing a headset. I'm

seeing this person in 3D.

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And there is an AI component

of how they're doing this.

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But you have this experience.

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And I think the biggest thing for me

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is it felt like Star Trek,

like something like from Star Trek, right?

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It felt kind of like, wow, we're really

enabling this type of communication.

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What impressed me the most, Jeff, was that

when I had that, Google beam, now,

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I guess demo is how how

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how realistic things looked, right?

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I could almost see their paws,

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Like, it was really great definition.

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And then they had an apple and I remember

them extending the apple towards me

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in my initial reaction as a human is

I will want to grab the apple.

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Of course I can't because it's virtual.

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But that kind of,

that kind of was the moment for me

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that I said, this is powerful technology.

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And whether it whether

whether it's something that, you know,

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we have in our homes

or whether it's something that's enabled

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through different devices,

or you might have people

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using a Google Beam

and headsets at the same time.

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I don't know what it's going to look like.

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It looked to me like

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one of the ways that we're we're going

to communicate as humans in the future.

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So that's where Google Beam.

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You asked me, also, do you want to talk

about some of the headsets and Well,

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let's let's just.

While we're on Google Beam.

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Because I don't want to lose track of it.

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How much

in your mind is this kind of a tech demo?

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And it'll stay a tech demo versus

do you think there's actually,

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you know, commercial applications?

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Here is the I guess, the hardware

infrastructure are going to be viable

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for people to have these things, you know,

in their homes or in their offices.

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Well, maybe potentially if it's smaller,

it is still I mean, the demo that I got

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is still a pretty big set up, Yeah.

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think it's small. It could be very useful.

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I think for like fashion brands,

for example,

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this is where my mind went

when I saw it was, you know, the apple.

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But then I was like, my gosh,

if I am buying jewelry

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or I'm buying something

where I want to see the texture,

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I want to see it up close and maybe

let's say, let's say I'm in Hong Kong

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and the jewelry I want to buy is in,

you know, in Mexico.

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Let's say

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a way to kind of have that communication

in a better way.

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Or if I am a designer and I am dressing

a star, and I want to show them

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some of these, you know, dresses

in a much more 3D, immersive way.

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So I think that we might have

these devices in certain places.

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I don't know if it's going

be in every home,

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at least for the time being, but

we might have them, in different places.

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I could even see people setting up.

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And this is my mind

going to a lot of the research

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I'm doing on AI technology

and the future of human relationships.

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I could even imagine people setting up

maybe like dating salons

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where they have some of these

and you might be able to meet people

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and meet them in 3D in that virtual form

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before you actually meet them in person,

because they might not be there, you know.

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So, I don't know, it was very to me,

it was very powerful to see someone in 3D

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in that form, in such a, in such a clear

form in front of me, without a headset on.

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That's. That's so cool. And I love

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it. It sounds promising in the sense

that, you know,

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you can just rattle off

potential use cases.

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And that's,

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you know, that's always

an interesting barrier or an interesting

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kind of pressure test for a new technology

is that, you know, something

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where you can say, okay,

you could use it for X, y, z, or,

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you know, and I'll dunk on the metaverse

for a minute.

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But I feel like there was a

there was a time at the metaverse

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where it was just like,

no, trust us, it's going to be good.

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But we can't exactly explain

how you're going to use it.

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Yeah.

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You know, at the end of the day,

I think as humans, we are.

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We live in a 3D world, right?

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We do not live in a flat world.

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all 3D, and we're volumetric.

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So my premise has always been like,

for example, with the dating example, it's

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like we did in 3D.

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text and a

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lot of but like at the end of the day,

you date a human, at least for now.

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And they're in 3D, so why not date in 3D,

those sorts of things.

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So I'm really, really interested

in kind of looking at that.

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My mind also went to like job interviews

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because, you know,

so many decisions are made on a flat zoom

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video of whether you hire someone or not,

if you're not meeting them in person.

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I feel like this could add a level of,

of potential to see someone's personality

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come through or see how do they you know,

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there was a part of me that thought, okay,

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this could be really interesting

for job interviews as well,

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and making a better decision

about who someone is,

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you know,

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in a more 3D form than just a 2D zoom

call.

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So. Right.

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Well it it strikes me as the type of thing

where

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if we're anywhere near being able

to send any number of these out,

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it starts with, okay,

there's special salons or there's special,

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you know, places you go that

have them and people get a feel for them.

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And as the economics change, they,

you know, first entered the enterprise

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and then maybe the enter,

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they enter the home and there's a whole,

you know, kind of 5 to 10 year,

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maybe even more timeline

of how we integrate these into our lives.

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Yeah. And I don't think

it will be just one device.

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I think we'll have multiple devices

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that we go in between

depending on what we want to do. Right.

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But I think that this, this,

whatever this is laying the seeds for

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is part of that future, future

human to human communication state.

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Right.

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And and, you know, I have to ask you,

because you use this face to face,

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what was there any part of you

that experienced it and thought like,

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well, why would I ever take another call

on my phone again?

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Like, why would I ever go back to like it?

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Is there a world if the technology enables

that where it actually,

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you know, almost fully replaces

what we're doing now? Yes.

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And especially when it comes to emotion

and family and people you care about.

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That's one of the moments where I said,

okay, this has potential in that sense.

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And I think that's where a device like

Google Beam or devices like some of these

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newer headsets that are coming

could really be important, right?

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Which is memory preservation or the idea

and the concept of presence of of being

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with someone in kind of the same place,

even if you can't be in the same place.

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I thought that was very powerful.

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There's a lot

of thinking I'm doing right now in a talk

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I'm working on, which is called

The Future of the Family photo.

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Right.

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So anyone listening here, I want you to

think about ten years in the future, 2035.

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What is your family portrait

or your family photo look like?

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Right?

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Does it include potentially a hologram

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of a deceased loved one

that might not be with us?

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Is that possible?

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Is in

the technology is already here right.

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Does that include a robot? Right.

I think of the Jetsons.

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The Jetsons always had Rosie

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of the family. Rosie was always there.

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So so I am.

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I might extends and pushes into

that of like memory preservation.

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And this comes,

I guess, from that Google Beam experience,

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but also from Apple Vision Pro

and some of the devices I've used

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where you're able to relive memories

like I shoot a lot of like let's say

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spatial video, which is video

that has 3D and in depth on my iPhone.

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And then I am able to watch it in

my, in my, Apple Vision Pro.

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So like, I've watched my kids

or I've done videos with my dad

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who's 80, for example,

and I relive them and it it

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there's an emotion that comes through

that is very special.

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So I think that there is something there.

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And I think products

eventually do take off,

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not for technology's sake, but

because they allow us to feel something.

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And the example I give

everyone is Facebook, like my parents.

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And I'm like a bigger part of the

of the market.

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Didn't enter Facebook until they weren't

like they weren't like going there

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because they needed to see kids

of their pictures of the grandkids.

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Right.

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So so I think that there is some

something here that has to pull

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at our heartstrings to make some of this

technology fully mass market.

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That's that's really, really interesting.

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And I hadn't really thought about it, but.

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And I'm, I'm by

no means like a big like AR or VR guy.

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But in my own experience, the,

the time I messed with it the most was

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I had years and years ago,

I don't remember

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it's called like Google Cardboard

or something.

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But there was, you know. Yeah, yeah.

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And, and I remember the thing

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that the memory is emotional

that I remember I could take pictures

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of like my parents house

and put it on and like, you're there.

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Right.

And it captures that moment in time.

00;12;17;16 - 00;12;20;25

And so it's really interesting

that that you bring that up

00;12;20;25 - 00;12;25;02

as kind of like the use case

because I, I totally buy that.

00;12;25;02 - 00;12;28;11

And I see that being the way that we,

you know, again,

00;12;28;11 - 00;12;31;28

the stress test for where

this technology will work or not work.

00;12;32;19 - 00;12;36;11

And I think especially with AI becoming

becoming more at the forefront.

00;12;36;11 - 00;12;40;03

And everyone's talk about humanoid robots

and dating AIS and all that stuff.

00;12;40;17 - 00;12;43;03

I think human will have a premium.

00;12;43;03 - 00;12;46;15

And I think some of these technologies

will allow us to have that,

00;12;46;15 - 00;12;50;16

you know, that human experience

that we all so crave or most of us do. So.

00;12;50;16 - 00;12;50;24

So yeah,

00;12;50;24 - 00;12;53;24

I think that there is two different forces

happening at the same time here.

00;12;53;26 - 00;12;56;20

You you mentioned briefly Vision

Pro and Vision Pro.

00;12;56;20 - 00;12;59;20

I don't know if this is just my feet

or my sphere, but I feel like

00;13;00;14 - 00;13;03;16

there's been backlash

is probably too strong a word.

00;13;03;16 - 00;13;05;24

But I feel like I've heard some,

some news stories

00;13;05;24 - 00;13;09;25

or some propagated stories

of just how people are asking for refunds

00;13;09;25 - 00;13;12;28

or it hasn't really panned out the way

people thought you know what?

00;13;13;13 - 00;13;17;01

Where are we in the life

cycle of Vision Pro?

00;13;17;02 - 00;13;19;17

Was it, you know,

always just meant to be a tech demo?

00;13;19;17 - 00;13;22;17

And it you know, it's gotten

as far as it's going to go.

00;13;22;18 - 00;13;24;26

Where does that product go from here?

00;13;24;26 - 00;13;26;22

Well I think it it goes further.

00;13;26;22 - 00;13;27;20

But I will tell you this.

00;13;27;20 - 00;13;30;28

I do believe that as a product

this was not a consumer product.

00;13;30;28 - 00;13;33;20

This was a developer's

kit. Let's be very clear.

00;13;33;20 - 00;13;36;20

And granite

they made a huge, you know, Yeah.

00;13;36;23 - 00;13;38;04

from a consumer standpoint.

00;13;38;04 - 00;13;39;18

But you know,

was it a consumer product. No.

00;13;39;18 - 00;13;41;13

Not really I mean, I'm a developer.

00;13;41;13 - 00;13;43;03

I use a device to create things.

00;13;43;03 - 00;13;46;14

It's there's still friction and be able

to create things for the Vision Pro.

00;13;46;14 - 00;13;49;14

It's not something everyone's

gonna be doing, at least not right now.

00;13;49;19 - 00;13;52;29

So so definitely would say

that I don't think that they, you know,

00;13;53;07 - 00;13;56;07

I don't think they, they had like

I don't think they expected to sell

00;13;56;25 - 00;13;58;10

like billions of these.

00;13;58;10 - 00;13;59;09

I think that they, you know,

00;13;59;09 - 00;14;03;09

it was just kind of a very, very Apple

marketing push up to prime the market.

00;14;03;21 - 00;14;05;19

I think personally, that's

what they were trying to do

00;14;05;19 - 00;14;08;28

in the market test the market,

bring something innovative out.

00;14;08;28 - 00;14;10;05

Because, you know,

00;14;10;05 - 00;14;13;07

what else can we do to our phones

and what other cameras can we add to it.

00;14;14;07 - 00;14;14;26

So so I

00;14;14;26 - 00;14;19;19

do think, you know, as we look towards

the future and potentially newer products

00;14;19;19 - 00;14;22;21

that Apple might bring to the market,

we're going to see different versions.

00;14;23;00 - 00;14;24;20

You know, I'm

not saying it will be the Apple Vision

00;14;24;20 - 00;14;28;05

Pro two or something, but I think we will

see bigger like different versions.

00;14;28;14 - 00;14;31;13

At the end of the day,

what all these devices are trying to

00;14;31;13 - 00;14;35;01

do is replace the mobile phone

or give us an option

00;14;35;07 - 00;14;37;29

that might be more immersive

than the mobile phone.

00;14;37;29 - 00;14;38;22

Right.

00;14;38;22 - 00;14;39;29

So yeah.

00;14;39;29 - 00;14;43;27

So it's I don't think Apple Vision

Pro one, is it. Right.

00;14;44;03 - 00;14;46;07

But it is seeded the market.

00;14;46;07 - 00;14;47;15

It's seeded the narrative.

00;14;47;15 - 00;14;50;23

And it's started

kind of that past that path towards this

00;14;50;23 - 00;14;53;23

newer 3D spatial video

spatial audio format.

00;14;53;28 - 00;14;54;22

Right. So?

00;14;54;22 - 00;15;00;12

So, speaking of new devices,

what what is OpenAI up to right now?

00;15;00;13 - 00;15;02;22

You know, they've they've got

this partnership that they announced.

00;15;02;22 - 00;15;05;05

I'll be honest, I don't fully get it.

00;15;05;05 - 00;15;08;12

Like I get I get that

they want to expand into hardware

00;15;08;12 - 00;15;11;20

or into the physical world, but I don't

I don't really get it.

00;15;11;20 - 00;15;13;22

Like, can you shed some light on on

00;15;13;22 - 00;15;16;07

what's going on over there

and how you see it kind of playing out?

00;15;16;07 - 00;15;18;03

Yeah.

So I don't have any insider information.

00;15;18;03 - 00;15;20;16

So first of all,

but I'll tell you what I've noticed.

00;15;20;16 - 00;15;23;02

So I've been tracking this

for almost two years.

00;15;23;02 - 00;15;25;27

So one of the first times

I heard Sam Altman talk about

00;15;25;27 - 00;15;29;09

the future of the smartphone or hardware,

really a hardware conversation

00;15;29;20 - 00;15;33;19

was, Wall Street Tech Live 2023.

00;15;34;02 - 00;15;36;28

That's as early as I heard him talk

about hardware, and it's stuck with me.

00;15;36;28 - 00;15;39;11

And I was like, let me let me hear this.

00;15;39;11 - 00;15;44;22

So, then earlier, earlier in 2025,

there was news that they had filed patents

00;15;44;22 - 00;15;48;00

for smart jewelry for smart glasses,

VR headsets,

00;15;48;00 - 00;15;49;16

a whole bunch of different things. Right.

00;15;49;16 - 00;15;53;00

And I wrote a lot of articles in Forbes

and also for the World Economic Forum

00;15;53;00 - 00;15;57;22

about how the hardware is critical

for the development of the newer models.

00;15;58;01 - 00;15;58;29

And whoever owns

00;15;58;29 - 00;16;02;01

the hardware owns the data

that is going to train the newer models.

00;16;02;10 - 00;16;05;09

What I mean by

that is that this is a strategic play.

00;16;05;09 - 00;16;07;23

This is not just about hardware,

right? Right.

00;16;07;23 - 00;16;09;00

Now what you have are

00;16;09;00 - 00;16;12;15

is generative AI, large language models

that are trained on language, right.

00;16;12;20 - 00;16;15;05

Whether it's video,

whether it's audio, whatever it is.

00;16;15;05 - 00;16;15;18

Right.

00;16;15;18 - 00;16;18;19

But it's mostly created on

it's mostly trained on audio and things

00;16;18;19 - 00;16;21;11

that already exist

that have already been created right.

00;16;22;15 - 00;16;25;15

In order for us to go from generative

AI into agent

00;16;25;22 - 00;16;28;29

AI and then into physically AI,

which is kind of the

00;16;29;05 - 00;16;33;03

the curve that Jensen Wang from in media

shows us every time he does a keynote.

00;16;33;13 - 00;16;36;28

In order for us to get there,

you are going to need new architectures

00;16;36;28 - 00;16;37;28

and new models.

00;16;37;28 - 00;16;40;28

And some of those new models

are, for example, vision action models.

00;16;41;02 - 00;16;44;13

So models that are scanning the world,

the physical world

00;16;44;24 - 00;16;49;10

constantly in real time,

creating a virtual version of the world

00;16;49;10 - 00;16;53;22

like a mesh of the virtual world

that is going to allow these devices

00;16;53;22 - 00;16;55;20

to understand

the world, put content in front of us.

00;16;55;20 - 00;16;58;20

So it's going to allow more robots

to navigate the world,

00;16;58;23 - 00;17;00;07

more autonomous vehicles.

00;17;00;07 - 00;17;01;20

There's this whole other component.

00;17;01;20 - 00;17;05;12

So whoever owns

the hardware is going to be able

00;17;05;12 - 00;17;09;11

to kind of own the data or have access

to the data to train these newer models.

00;17;09;20 - 00;17;11;18

So this is a vision towards the future.

00;17;11;18 - 00;17;14;02

And the only way that OpenAI

can eventually compete

00;17;14;02 - 00;17;17;15

with an Apple or a meta or any of these is

if they have a hardware play.

00;17;17;26 - 00;17;19;07

And I think a lot of people miss that.

00;17;19;07 - 00;17;22;07

Like they don't understand that

this is a hardware play in that sense.

00;17;22;07 - 00;17;24;26

And the modes,

the mode around the software,

00;17;24;26 - 00;17;27;26

the mode around the Lem, per

se that we use today

00;17;28;08 - 00;17;31;08

is getting smaller by the day, right?

00;17;31;12 - 00;17;33;18

So where

where are the bigger opportunities?

00;17;33;18 - 00;17;34;02

Where are we going to be?

00;17;34;02 - 00;17;36;26

The larger modes will be in hardware

because hardware is hard.

00;17;36;26 - 00;17;38;19

That's the same of anyone

that works in hardware.

00;17;38;19 - 00;17;40;00

We all know that

00;17;40;00 - 00;17;42;28

the hardware is going to determine

how some of these newer models go,

00;17;42;28 - 00;17;45;05

how they're trained, the data

they have access to,

00;17;45;05 - 00;17;47;27

and then who gets to put content in

front of you, all these sorts of things.

00;17;47;27 - 00;17;48;18

Right.

00;17;48;18 - 00;17;51;07

So whoever owns the hardware

is going to have an upper hand.

00;17;51;07 - 00;17;53;17

That's why meta, for example,

is in their hardware era.

00;17;54;19 - 00;17;57;18

So I hope that I hope,

Jeff, I hope that that that made sense.

00;17;57;18 - 00;18;00;22

I know it makes

No it does, it does, it does.

00;18;00;22 - 00;18;03;15

But I want to dig into it

a little bit more because you answered,

00;18;03;15 - 00;18;07;00

you answered half of the question

which is the half of like

00;18;07;00 - 00;18;08;21

what's in it for OpenAI.

00;18;08;21 - 00;18;10;01

What's in it for Sam.

00;18;10;01 - 00;18;12;05

I get what's in it for Sam.

I get what's in it for OpenAI.

00;18;12;05 - 00;18;14;15

I get the competitive part.

But what's in it for me?

00;18;14;15 - 00;18;15;12

What's in it for you?

00;18;15;12 - 00;18;18;13

Like, I understand why

they want to be in hardware.

00;18;18;25 - 00;18;21;09

Why should I get their device?

00;18;21;09 - 00;18;24;09

Why is consumers,

should we be excited about this?

00;18;30;17 - 00;18;32;23

Yeah.

00;18;32;23 - 00;18;33;16

different thing.

00;18;33;16 - 00;18;36;16

Our data are,

you know, we became the product kind

00;18;37;27 - 00;18;38;27

I don't know what's in it for us.

00;18;38;27 - 00;18;41;29

The only thing I can imagine

here is a couple things I would say.

00;18;42;11 - 00;18;46;27

The fact that we're starting to all use

AI so much on a constant basis

00;18;47;13 - 00;18;52;10

that maybe that human,

that human technology collaboration

00;18;52;10 - 00;18;55;21

that we're building becomes something

that we have to that we do every day,

00;18;55;21 - 00;18;58;27

and then it's going to be easier to do it

in some other type of hardware.

00;18;58;27 - 00;18;59;13

Right?

00;18;59;13 - 00;19;02;26

I don't always want to be talking to my,

my phone or to my computer.

00;19;02;26 - 00;19;04;13

It's some other device that I can talk to

00;19;04;13 - 00;19;06;14

that can give me more information

in real time.

00;19;06;14 - 00;19;07;26

But the physical world,

00;19;07;26 - 00;19;12;06

so what could be in it for us

would be faster access to AI.

00;19;12;12 - 00;19;15;29

AI that understands and sees the world

and becomes a lot more useful to us.

00;19;16;20 - 00;19;20;11

That's potentially what could be,

you know, an incentive to consumers.

00;19;20;26 - 00;19;23;01

There's a whole question about privacy,

right?

00;19;23;01 - 00;19;24;03

Is there even privacy?

00;19;24;03 - 00;19;26;28

Like, I'm

a guinea pig for all of these devices.

00;19;26;28 - 00;19;28;14

I've got my iris scan by.

00;19;28;14 - 00;19;33;15

I don't know how many devices like to me,

like I or my hand like my face scanned

00;19;33;15 - 00;19;37;02

by so much facial recognition,

like there's a part of me that feels like.

00;19;37;28 - 00;19;41;08

I mean, I've given in my perspective

because I am a guinea pig

00;19;41;08 - 00;19;42;18

and I try all these devices.

00;19;42;18 - 00;19;45;17

I feel like maybe I've given up

a lot of my privacy already.

00;19;45;17 - 00;19;47;24

It doesn't mean everyone should, right?

00;19;47;24 - 00;19;51;11

But but there is that question like,

what is in it for for the consumer?

00;19;51;11 - 00;19;52;17

I'm not sure yet.

00;19;52;17 - 00;19;56;17

I'm not sure what exactly

other than potentially being able to,

00;19;56;23 - 00;19;58;12

you know, being able

to to do certain things.

00;19;58;12 - 00;20;02;09

I do think that if, if Alexa

and this is the joke, if robots,

00;20;02;10 - 00;20;05;18

you know, if Alexa can do my laundry

and Alexa can, you know, do my dishes,

00;20;06;01 - 00;20;09;01

then maybe it is

something that I want in my house.

00;20;09;04 - 00;20;11;00

Yeah. Well. And it's such, And I.

00;20;11;00 - 00;20;14;25

I swear I didn't plan this,

but it's such an interesting, You know,

00;20;14;25 - 00;20;18;04

it's such an interesting comparison

with, you know, Google Beam,

00;20;18;04 - 00;20;20;24

which we just talked about

because this, this is a technology

00;20;20;24 - 00;20;25;08

where there's an emotional reaction

and it's so present and we're rattling off

00;20;25;08 - 00;20;29;01

use cases and then, you know, we switch to

we switch to OpenAI and we're like,

00;20;29;04 - 00;20;30;01

I don't know, I don't know.

00;20;30;01 - 00;20;31;17

It's like it's good for Sam.

00;20;31;17 - 00;20;33;17

Like,

but I don't know what we'll use it for.

00;20;33;17 - 00;20;37;16

So, it's it's very interesting

to have these completely different

00;20;37;16 - 00;20;39;11

ends of the spectrum here.

00;20;39;11 - 00;20;41;22

I'll give you a comment here

that I think is very important.

00;20;41;22 - 00;20;42;25

Very relevant.

00;20;42;25 - 00;20;45;18

The data that has been coming out

is that a lot of people

00;20;45;18 - 00;20;49;04

are using LMS,

like ChatGPT, for example, for

00;20;50;05 - 00;20;51;25

advice,

00;20;51;25 - 00;20;53;02

maybe companionship.

00;20;53;02 - 00;20;55;16

A lot of people are using it

to get advice for dating.

00;20;55;16 - 00;20;57;02

Some people are dating the AI.

00;20;57;02 - 00;21;02;00

You know, but what people forget here

is that you, at the end of the day,

00;21;02;00 - 00;21;05;09

especially if you are seeking it

for therapy, which is concerning to me.

00;21;06;23 - 00;21;09;00

You are talking to a corporation.

00;21;09;00 - 00;21;11;10

You are not talking to a friend, right?

00;21;11;10 - 00;21;14;14

This is a corporation that owns the LM,

and the

00;21;14;14 - 00;21;18;03

LM is programed to agree with you

unless you ask it not to.

00;21;18;10 - 00;21;19;17

You know, unless you're like,

00;21;19;17 - 00;21;22;17

set the parameter that you want it to be,

you know, contradict your own stuff.

00;21;23;06 - 00;21;24;13

And that's what I think people forget.

00;21;24;13 - 00;21;26;16

It's like you're not talking to a friend

here.

00;21;26;16 - 00;21;28;04

What you're talking to here

00;21;28;04 - 00;21;31;20

is a corporation,

a general purpose large language model.

00;21;32;04 - 00;21;34;09

Right.

And I people think people lose that.

00;21;34;09 - 00;21;36;05

So your question is,

I think, very relevant

00;21;36;05 - 00;21;39;22

at this moment in time where

so many people are going to it for advice.

00;21;40;15 - 00;21;42;24

was actually talking to a friend

about this over dinner the other day,

00;21;42;24 - 00;21;47;07

which is, you know, I first of all, I'm

a huge advocate of of mental health.

00;21;47;07 - 00;21;50;06

I'm a huge advocate of people

getting therapy and getting support.

00;21;50;06 - 00;21;53;06

And what my friend said is

when she talks to a therapist,

00;21;53;15 - 00;21;57;15

you know, it's confidential,

but it's not a completely closed system

00;21;57;15 - 00;22;01;17

because the therapist has notes,

you know, on their computer in a notebook,

00;22;02;02 - 00;22;03;17

but that that's the extent of it, right?

00;22;03;17 - 00;22;06;20

Like someone could break into their office

or into their system and hack that.

00;22;07;17 - 00;22;11;03

When you start moving that to like,

okay, now I'm talking now.

00;22;11;03 - 00;22;13;10

Now Google has access to that.

00;22;13;10 - 00;22;14;22

Now OpenAI has access to that.

00;22;14;22 - 00;22;18;14

And they're like almost explicitly,

I would say, using that

00;22;18;14 - 00;22;19;29

to train their systems.

00;22;19;29 - 00;22;22;15

Like, what does that mean?

00;22;22;15 - 00;22;27;09

And what is the potential downside for you

as an individual there?

00;22;28;06 - 00;22;30;19

All of this is data, right? It's data.

00;22;30;19 - 00;22;31;20

the data that you're putting in there.

00;22;31;20 - 00;22;35;05

If the if if the alarm knows

that you have broken up with

00;22;35;05 - 00;22;38;14

John and you're really sad, like

00;22;38;14 - 00;22;42;18

it starts to be like, okay, you know,

maybe you start getting ads for Match.com.

00;22;42;26 - 00;22;45;00

I mean, this is all about selling data,

right?

00;22;45;00 - 00;22;46;25

And Yeah. get from you?

00;22;46;25 - 00;22;50;21

And then when you add AI agents into it,

that's the next level.

00;22;50;21 - 00;22;54;27

I mean, if your agent knows that you're

sad because you broke up or you,

00;22;54;27 - 00;22;57;27

you know, or something like that, like,

is it going to start?

00;22;58;06 - 00;23;01;07

Is it going to start shopping for things

to make you feel better that you might not

00;23;01;07 - 00;23;04;07

need,

like Wally Wally type of situation, right.

00;23;04;13 - 00;23;06;20

I don't need the Slurpee,

but it makes me feel good.

00;23;06;20 - 00;23;10;02

So so I think that there

is this other layer that worries me

00;23;10;26 - 00;23;14;15

when we're putting so much information,

personal information into these devices.

00;23;14;24 - 00;23;17;06

Well, not devices into these lens, right?

00;23;17;06 - 00;23;21;01

When there is no HIPAA, there's no

like there's nothing regulating this.

00;23;21;14 - 00;23;21;28

Right.

00;23;21;28 - 00;23;25;12

And, I went to Esther Esther

Peralez, sessions live

00;23;25;12 - 00;23;27;04

and there was

a big conversation around AI,

00;23;27;04 - 00;23;29;01

and it was mostly therapists and coaches,

00;23;29;01 - 00;23;31;08

and that was a big

the big question is like

00;23;31;08 - 00;23;34;18

our our patients are all going to ChatGPT

for advice.

00;23;35;00 - 00;23;36;06

We don't get to see it.

00;23;36;06 - 00;23;37;04

We don't necessarily

00;23;37;04 - 00;23;40;04

think that everything it's saying

is the right course of action.

00;23;40;13 - 00;23;42;18

They're finding value in it.

How do you merge those?

00;23;42;18 - 00;23;43;25

How do you how do you

00;23;43;25 - 00;23;48;00

how do you marry those two

so that there is ethics and privacy?

00;23;48;00 - 00;23;50;03

In some ways

when it comes to mental health,

00;23;50;03 - 00;23;52;07

but also that people don't

get access to something,

00;23;52;07 - 00;23;54;00

you know, when they might not be able

to afford a therapist.

00;23;54;00 - 00;23;57;11

So it's kind of like a I mean, someone's

got to come up with a really good

00;23;57;11 - 00;24;00;13

solution here

at some point that allows for both.

00;24;00;23 - 00;24;02;18

Well and you know, not.

00;24;02;18 - 00;24;05;00

Not to try

and get the silver bullet answer.

00;24;05;00 - 00;24;05;24

But I mean, do you

00;24;05;24 - 00;24;09;21

do you have some overarching guidance

that you give to people around

00;24;09;21 - 00;24;13;09

how they should

and shouldn't be using, generative AI?

00;24;14;08 - 00;24;14;16

Yeah.

00;24;14;16 - 00;24;16;24

When it comes to when it comes

to that personal advice part,

00;24;16;24 - 00;24;19;24

like if it's for business, you

every corporation should have,

00;24;19;28 - 00;24;22;22

you know, should have their own baselines

on how to use it, etc., what you can

00;24;22;22 - 00;24;23;27

and can input. Right.

00;24;23;27 - 00;24;26;25

I think for a, for personal perspective,

it's just like what

00;24;26;25 - 00;24;29;25

I tell my kids is that when you're doing

social work, you're doing photos.

00;24;30;01 - 00;24;33;09

Nothing gets a race

just because you think someone deleted it.

00;24;33;09 - 00;24;36;04

No, this is going to live on forever

if you, you know, potentially. Right.

00;24;36;04 - 00;24;39;04

Just because it's snap disappears

doesn't really disappear.

00;24;39;04 - 00;24;40;12

So same concept.

00;24;40;12 - 00;24;42;22

You are talking to a corporation.

00;24;42;22 - 00;24;44;14

What you are sharing.

00;24;44;14 - 00;24;46;29

You know, you have to be very mindful

of what it is that you're sharing.

00;24;46;29 - 00;24;48;28

It has memory if you don't want it to.

00;24;48;28 - 00;24;51;08

Remember this is something

you have to change, right?

00;24;51;08 - 00;24;53;06

Because it'll continue remembering.

00;24;53;06 - 00;24;56;25

So thinking through that,

I think my biggest advice for some people,

00;24;56;25 - 00;24;58;22

at least the one that I'm using personally

00;24;58;22 - 00;25;00;19

and this is I'm just going to get personal

here,

00;25;00;19 - 00;25;04;16

is, as someone that is recently divorced

and dating

00;25;04;26 - 00;25;09;03

is, I ask the men that I'm seeing to not

use AI in our conversations.

00;25;10;04 - 00;25;13;12

So the I pledge what I call an AI pledge

because a lot of people out there,

00;25;13;12 - 00;25;18;18

the dating world are using AI to craft

these really romantic,

00;25;18;24 - 00;25;23;00

you know, like, how about love bombing

to love bombing through point L using AI.

00;25;23;09 - 00;25;26;10

So I feel like that's something a lot of

people are starting to talk about.

00;25;26;10 - 00;25;31;03

Is not offloading

your difficult conversations to an AI.

00;25;31;03 - 00;25;32;15

Yeah, you can use an AI to kind of help

00;25;32;15 - 00;25;36;10

you try to decipher how to say something,

but don't give me only generated things.

00;25;36;10 - 00;25;38;13

And I've found already friends,

for example,

00;25;38;13 - 00;25;39;27

that were reaching out to me for advice.

00;25;39;27 - 00;25;42;06

I'm like, oh my gosh, Johnny sent me this.

What do you think?

00;25;42;06 - 00;25;42;17

He said?

00;25;42;17 - 00;25;45;29

And I literally said,

look, it's got m dashes everywhere.

00;25;46;05 - 00;25;49;25

What human uses an m dash

to text your boo?

00;25;50;05 - 00;25;53;05

I'm like, this is my big hunch here

is that they use ChatGPT.

00;25;53;12 - 00;25;56;14

And then they went back and looked at the

other text like messages, and I was like,

00;25;57;13 - 00;26;00;07

I hate to

break it to you, but if it does feel to me

00;26;00;07 - 00;26;01;10

that they're using ChatGPT

00;26;01;10 - 00;26;03;04

because I don't

I don't know anyone that knows where

00;26;03;04 - 00;26;06;03

to find the M dash on their phone

when they're texting.

00;26;06;07 - 00;26;08;17

That's I, by the way, I love the text.

00;26;08;17 - 00;26;11;16

I was just a test. Rather

I was. I was just laughing at that.

00;26;11;16 - 00;26;12;25

And while it it's it

00;26;12;25 - 00;26;16;10

and it's interesting because it can do

as you were saying with your friend.

00;26;16;10 - 00;26;18;19

Like it can do a pretty good job

at creating that content.

00;26;18;19 - 00;26;21;03

But at some point

you're going to meet the guy

00;26;21;03 - 00;26;23;10

and they're not going to be able

to hold up their end of the bargain.

00;26;23;10 - 00;26;23;15

Right?

00;26;23;15 - 00;26;26;14

And you're like, oh,

I actually it was just the AI that I like.

00;26;26;14 - 00;26;26;23

Yeah.

00;26;28;08 - 00;26;28;20

and you know

00;26;28;20 - 00;26;31;19

how you talk

in real life are definitely not the same.

00;26;31;24 - 00;26;34;02

Yeah. and I'm already seeing this.

I'll give you just.

00;26;34;02 - 00;26;36;28

I know we're going on a different tangent,

Yeah.

00;26;36;28 - 00;26;39;29

me and very, very, concerning.

00;26;40;08 - 00;26;42;00

I was talking to my teenage daughter,

00;26;42;00 - 00;26;44;24

and she was talking about her friends

who were meeting, you know, their

00;26;44;24 - 00;26;49;05

their kids are dating in Roblox and kids

are, you know, instead of passing a note

00;26;49;05 - 00;26;52;04

in the hallway, those things are done on

Snapchat now, right?

00;26;52;13 - 00;26;54;09

So there's all these things.

00;26;54;09 - 00;26;56;26

And she was telling me about her friend

who was dating someone.

00;26;56;26 - 00;27;00;21

And, it turns out

the kid was younger than he said he was.

00;27;00;26 - 00;27;03;08

So she was in high school.

He was in middle school. She found out she

00;27;04;26 - 00;27;06;29

Yes. don't want to break up with him

00;27;06;29 - 00;27;09;05

because he writes me

these really beautiful messages.

00;27;09;05 - 00;27;10;11

Oh my gosh.

00;27;10;11 - 00;27;12;00

she shows my daughter the messages.

00;27;12;00 - 00;27;15;29

And of course, being my daughter,

she's like, I think that might be I.

00;27;16;11 - 00;27;18;19

So then my daughter shows it to me

and I'm like, deciphering.

00;27;18;19 - 00;27;22;11

And I'm like, no, there's no way,

you know, a middle school boy,

00;27;22;11 - 00;27;27;21

no matter how good he is, is writing

this level of prose on a constant Yeah.

00;27;28;00 - 00;27;30;23

and if, in fact,

this kid was using ChatGPT.

00;27;30;23 - 00;27;33;12

So, I mean, there's already

a lot happening with teenage girls

00;27;33;12 - 00;27;36;12

being manipulated. I'm concerned.

00;27;36;14 - 00;27;37;06

Oh my gosh.

00;27;37;06 - 00;27;37;11

Yeah.

00;27;37;11 - 00;27;40;02

That's like equal parts

funny and, and terrifying.

00;27;40;02 - 00;27;43;02

There. Yeah. Yeah. And and sad as well.

00;27;43;02 - 00;27;47;24

You know, let's, let's maybe zoom out

in terms of just technology in general.

00;27;47;25 - 00;27;50;09

We talked about a few particular

use cases, but,

00;27;50;09 - 00;27;51;08

you know, just in general,

00;27;51;08 - 00;27;53;10

when we think about

how some of these technologies

00;27;53;10 - 00;27;55;07

are starting to intersect,

we're thinking about AI,

00;27;55;07 - 00;27;56;12

we're thinking of Internet of Things.

00;27;56;12 - 00;27;59;24

We're talking about extended

reality, robotics, all that good stuff.

00;28;00;14 - 00;28;03;29

Where are kind of the pockets right now

that are most exciting to you,

00;28;03;29 - 00;28;06;01

or do you see the most promise?

00;28;06;01 - 00;28;09;13

There's several I would say

when it comes to emerging technologies.

00;28;09;13 - 00;28;12;13

I would say there's four for me

that I'm really interested in.

00;28;12;13 - 00;28;15;25

And I'm actually doing some work

with Nokia as a futurist in residence.

00;28;16;15 - 00;28;17;17

So there's four things

00;28;17;17 - 00;28;20;20

that I'm really interested

in, obviously, on the component of AI

00;28;21;21 - 00;28;22;09

is the concept

00;28;22;09 - 00;28;25;09

of expanding AI into the physical world

that we talked about.

00;28;25;09 - 00;28;29;21

I actually just spent about a week,

a little over a week in Japan.

00;28;30;05 - 00;28;34;14

And I actually got to spend

a lot of time with some of the, the, the,

00;28;34;19 - 00;28;38;18

some of the nations in Japan,

some of the Japan's leading roboticists,

00;28;38;26 - 00;28;41;26

like Professor Ishiguro,

which a lot of people know he has like a,

00;28;41;26 - 00;28;44;24

a humanoid robot

that looks just like him,

00;28;44;24 - 00;28;48;26

he's at the forefront of humanoid robots

and kind of having conversations

00;28;49;03 - 00;28;52;03

with him of why people would adopt these

where this is going.

00;28;52;23 - 00;28;55;11

I spent time with another brilliant

roboticist

00;28;55;11 - 00;28;59;05

who's working on creating

extra fingers and limbs for humans.

00;28;59;05 - 00;28;59;12

Right.

00;28;59;12 - 00;29;02;14

Which sounds weird, but once he shows you

what he's doing, you're like, wow, okay,

00;29;02;14 - 00;29;04;22

this could be really interesting

for the future of work.

00;29;04;22 - 00;29;07;11

So really trying to think

00;29;07;11 - 00;29;10;14

through, like, what is the purpose

of a humanoid robot, right?

00;29;10;14 - 00;29;14;25

And especially in a country like Japan,

where you have an aging population, right.

00;29;14;25 - 00;29;16;02

Eventually

they're not going to have enough

00;29;16;02 - 00;29;17;10

young people to kind of help, but like,

00;29;17;10 - 00;29;20;29

there's a whole bunch of things,

there's a lot of loneliness as well.

00;29;21;06 - 00;29;24;13

So thinking through through that

and seeing kind of the good in the bad

00;29;24;13 - 00;29;25;15

there especially,

00;29;25;15 - 00;29;30;16

I think culturally though, in Japan,

from a religious standpoint, I would say,

00;29;31;25 - 00;29;34;25

from a spirituality, spirituality

standpoint,

00;29;34;28 - 00;29;38;03

they do there are,

00;29;38;03 - 00;29;41;08

concepts

that they have about inanimate beings

00;29;41;08 - 00;29;45;02

having a soul where we live,

where we might call a soul in English.

00;29;45;20 - 00;29;49;10

You know, whether it is a statue of Buddha

or whether it's an object or a puppet

00;29;49;17 - 00;29;53;16

like that for them is very, very,

very ingrained in the, in the culturally.

00;29;53;24 - 00;29;57;12

So, so for them, robots have always

been around and they've already accepted

00;29;57;12 - 00;30;00;10

robots, not necessarily as a soul,

but as beings

00;30;00;10 - 00;30;04;04

that might have maybe not sentience,

but there's a different perspective.

00;30;04;04 - 00;30;05;28

Whereas we in the Western world see robots

00;30;05;28 - 00;30;07;22

and we think Terminator most of the time.

00;30;07;22 - 00;30;11;02

I think in, in parts like Japan,

the perspective is different.

00;30;11;02 - 00;30;14;01

So I would say definitely humanoid robots

and find that fascinating.

00;30;14;04 - 00;30;16;05

So. Sorry. Just.

Just before we leave, humanoid robots.

00;30;16;05 - 00;30;17;29

You said

I just want to zoom into something

00;30;17;29 - 00;30;21;13

because you use the phrase when we think

about the purpose of humanoid robots.

00;30;22;05 - 00;30;23;11

Can we unpack that for a second?

00;30;23;11 - 00;30;26;26

Like in your mind,

what is the purpose of humanoid robots?

00;30;26;27 - 00;30;29;27

Like what are the,

you know, the best emerging use cases?

00;30;30;11 - 00;30;32;13

Well I think there's several right there.

00;30;32;13 - 00;30;35;21

There's several short term ones

which could be, long term

00;30;35;21 - 00;30;39;20

care for the elderly when there is a need,

when there is a,

00;30;39;20 - 00;30;43;17

you know, a when there's not enough people

to maybe come and help.

00;30;44;02 - 00;30;46;14

So that was something

that was obviously talked about.

00;30;46;14 - 00;30;47;21

Definitely.

00;30;47;21 - 00;30;51;17

There's also conversations

about humanoid robots for, at work.

00;30;52;13 - 00;30;55;13

I don't know if humanoid robot

is the right form for certain work.

00;30;55;15 - 00;30;58;15

You know, if it's a factory,

it doesn't have to be a humanoid robot.

00;30;58;17 - 00;31;00;15

Why does it have to be in two legs?

00;31;00;15 - 00;31;02;07

There's a whole conversation

there on that.

00;31;02;07 - 00;31;04;25

So. So, yeah, I think that there's uses,

00;31;05;26 - 00;31;08;16

there

are some uses that are kind of more edgy.

00;31;08;16 - 00;31;09;23

I don't necessarily want to go there,

00;31;09;23 - 00;31;12;23

but those are definitely being explored

in Japan.

00;31;14;23 - 00;31;17;04

know, so, so there are different uses.

00;31;17;04 - 00;31;20;26

There was an interesting part

of what Professor Ishiguro

00;31;20;26 - 00;31;22;02

was presenting at the expo.

00;31;22;02 - 00;31;23;25

So I was there at the World Expo,

00;31;23;25 - 00;31;26;25

and he created a whole pavilion

called The Future of Life.

00;31;27;00 - 00;31;30;03

And there was like,

thinking maybe 100 years into the future

00;31;30;03 - 00;31;33;12

and how you might be able

to kind of offload,

00;31;33;13 - 00;31;35;21

your consciousness

eventually into a humanoid robot.

00;31;35;21 - 00;31;37;18

That's obviously

not something we can do right now,

00;31;37;18 - 00;31;38;24

but there are plenty of startups

00;31;38;24 - 00;31;41;24

or companies thinking through

how that might be possible in the future.

00;31;41;25 - 00;31;46;05

So, you know, I don't necessarily

want to be, offload my,

00;31;46;06 - 00;31;47;18

you know, my consciousness

00;31;47;18 - 00;31;51;23

into a humanoid robot, but it could be

a potential future that's ahead of us.

00;31;51;23 - 00;31;54;28

So, so I would say

those are some of the things that that,

00;31;54;28 - 00;31;57;13

that definitely I'm seeing. Right.

00;31;57;13 - 00;32;01;08

And then there's also that idea

and the concept of labor at home, like,

00;32;01;08 - 00;32;02;07

you know, help House help,

00;32;03;17 - 00;32;05;04

The Rosie from the Jetsons.

00;32;05;04 - 00;32;06;06

Yeah.

00;32;06;06 - 00;32;07;06

Yeah.

00;32;07;06 - 00;32;10;06

Yeah.

00;32;10;11 - 00;32;11;20

Cut! Cool.

00;32;11;20 - 00;32;12;27

So sorry I interrupted you there.

00;32;12;27 - 00;32;15;23

What are the last two, cases?

00;32;15;23 - 00;32;17;13

No, I think that That's right.

00;32;17;13 - 00;32;19;16

for humanoid robots for right now,

what I'm Right.

00;32;19;16 - 00;32;22;01

So beyond the humanoid robots,

the next two.

00;32;22;01 - 00;32;25;05

Yeah. say I'm really interested as well.

00;32;25;14 - 00;32;27;23

Well, spatial computing,

that's kind of my background.

00;32;27;23 - 00;32;28;20

That's where I come from.

00;32;28;20 - 00;32;32;14

I'm excited to see that convergence

of physical and virtual, of being able to.

00;32;32;18 - 00;32;36;22

And when I say that, I mean being able

to see digital content in front of you.

00;32;36;22 - 00;32;38;02

So making that virtual layer

00;32;38;02 - 00;32;42;03

that we engage with on our phones

kind of visible in front of you, right?

00;32;42;03 - 00;32;44;07

So eventually being able

to navigate the world

00;32;44;07 - 00;32;48;09

with some type of wearable or device

or whatever it becomes that allows me

00;32;48;09 - 00;32;49;20

to see this digital content around me.

00;32;49;20 - 00;32;50;23

So annotations,

00;32;50;23 - 00;32;54;15

wayfinding, you know, holograms,

all these sorts of things in front of me.

00;32;55;04 - 00;32;57;00

I find that really interesting.

00;32;57;00 - 00;33;01;23

So it's when the world becomes a canvas,

the physical world becomes a canvas,

00;33;01;23 - 00;33;04;25

but also becomes real estate,

which is very scary.

00;33;05;14 - 00;33;06;14

There's

00;33;07;12 - 00;33;08;06

someone ask me the the day.

00;33;08;06 - 00;33;10;18

What keeps you up at night

from a work perspective?

00;33;10;18 - 00;33;13;05

And I said

it does not keep anyone else up at night

00;33;13;05 - 00;33;16;19

or very few people in the world, but

it's the concept of virtual air, right?

00;33;17;05 - 00;33;18;22

Who owns the air around you?

00;33;18;22 - 00;33;21;22

Who owns what's in front of you,

what you can see and within earshot?

00;33;21;28 - 00;33;23;19

Because with these devices

00;33;23;19 - 00;33;26;19

coming in once again, you're like,

why would we use these right?

00;33;27;07 - 00;33;28;03

There's going to be things

00;33;28;03 - 00;33;29;24

that are going to be put in front of you

within eyesight.

00;33;29;24 - 00;33;30;24

You're going to hear things.

00;33;30;24 - 00;33;33;24

So who owns that?

Who regulates that? Right?

00;33;33;28 - 00;33;36;29

I'm talking to governments right now

about that concept of virtual air rights.

00;33;36;29 - 00;33;41;10

Once we have these, you know, once

AI is in the world, you have to start

00;33;41;10 - 00;33;44;25

to create these sanctuaries where nothing

is allowed to be put in front of you.

00;33;44;25 - 00;33;48;12

So so that is a

that's a promising in one way,

00;33;48;12 - 00;33;50;00

because I think there's

going to be a lot of things

00;33;50;00 - 00;33;53;27

that get unlocked, like virtual fashion,

like ways to express ourselves,

00;33;54;04 - 00;33;57;01

being able to, you know, be present

in different places at the same time.

00;33;57;01 - 00;33;59;15

Like, I think there's going to be

a lot of stuff that's unlocked there.

00;33;59;15 - 00;34;02;28

But also there's this other component

of like potential things

00;34;02;28 - 00;34;06;04

that could go really wrong

that we need to get ahead of really soon.

00;34;06;22 - 00;34;10;24

So that's I would say, and then I'm

really interested in space technology.

00;34;10;24 - 00;34;13;09

That's where I've been kind

of spending a little bit of time

00;34;13;09 - 00;34;16;15

over the last couple of years,

doing some really interesting projects

00;34;16;15 - 00;34;17;07

in that space.

00;34;17;07 - 00;34;21;15

But thinking through, you know,

how does space commerce take off?

00;34;21;15 - 00;34;22;18

What does it mean?

00;34;22;18 - 00;34;25;03

You know,

just just thinking through that.

00;34;25;03 - 00;34;27;21

Those are areas

that I'm focused on as well,

00;34;27;21 - 00;34;31;12

where I'm learning, where

I'm kind of becoming more knowledgeable.

00;34;31;12 - 00;34;35;11

And I think a lot of people should be

is quantum not just quantum computing,

00;34;35;11 - 00;34;38;11

but quantum sensing and quantum

communications, which is actually doing

00;34;38;11 - 00;34;42;06

really interesting work in, so, you know,

I'm not an expert by any means.

00;34;42;06 - 00;34;44;02

I do not claim to be,

but it's a place where

00;34;44;02 - 00;34;47;15

I'm spending more and more time

educating myself on what it means.

00;34;47;15 - 00;34;48;22

So, so don't ask me

00;34;48;22 - 00;34;52;18

for any expert advice on this one,

because I'm still, very much a pupil.

00;34;53;11 - 00;34;53;29

Got it.

00;34;53;29 - 00;34;54;09

Got it.

00;34;54;09 - 00;34;56;23

Will all steer clear of,

quantum for today.

00;34;56;23 - 00;34;58;13

So. So maybe maybe coming back

00;34;58;13 - 00;35;02;00

to spatial computing, though,

because this is one, Cathy, that's been

00;35;03;06 - 00;35;04;13

to me, there's been a pattern,

00;35;04;13 - 00;35;08;06

which is we've had and I, I apologize

because I'm about to use a

00;35;08;14 - 00;35;10;12

baseball analogy,

and I hate baseball analogies,

00;35;10;12 - 00;35;13;12

but it feels like

we've had an awful lot of, like, at bats

00;35;13;15 - 00;35;16;09

for spatial computing, like every year.

00;35;16;09 - 00;35;19;26

Some, you know, whether it's Google

or Snapchat or Microsoft,

00;35;20;03 - 00;35;24;14

there's a new VR, there's a new AR, and,

this is the one that, you know,

00;35;24;14 - 00;35;26;10

there's a press tour. It's so exciting.

00;35;26;10 - 00;35;28;22

The form factor is different.

Something's different.

00;35;28;22 - 00;35;30;17

And, you know, swing and a miss. Right.

00;35;30;17 - 00;35;33;20

Or maybe that's unfair,

but but it hasn't taken off

00;35;33;20 - 00;35;36;20

in any sort of like, consumer good way.

00;35;37;10 - 00;35;39;14

What why is that?

00;35;39;14 - 00;35;41;29

Like, what are these organizations

getting wrong?

00;35;41;29 - 00;35;44;26

And has anything changed

in the past few years

00;35;44;26 - 00;35;47;10

where you expect the trajectory

to actually,

00;35;47;10 - 00;35;49;26

you know, tighten

where we're actually going to, you know,

00;35;49;26 - 00;35;52;09

we're going to make contact there

and something's going to take off.

00;35;52;09 - 00;35;57;05

Or do you expect to see in the next 5

to 10 years just, you know, another dozen

00;35;57;05 - 00;36;00;10

of these devices that are interesting,

but but don't hit the mark.

00;36;00;22 - 00;36;03;06

I think there's so much money

now invested in

00;36;03;06 - 00;36;06;11

what is going to replace the mobile phone,

that it's not up to us.

00;36;06;11 - 00;36;10;03

It's whatever Silicon Valley decides

to bring us, which is good and bad.

00;36;10;13 - 00;36;13;03

In some ways, you know,

so I don't know if we have a.

00;36;13;03 - 00;36;15;11

Yeah. No,

I don't know. I do agree with you.

00;36;15;11 - 00;36;18;03

I think there's been so much hype

and so many hits and misses.

00;36;18;03 - 00;36;19;03

This is the year.

00;36;19;03 - 00;36;21;16

This is the year

I feel like every year is the year of XR.

00;36;21;16 - 00;36;23;13

And every year I hear, like, VR is dead.

00;36;23;13 - 00;36;25;11

Like I feel like I hear that everything.

00;36;25;11 - 00;36;28;10

And I've been in this industry almost

a decade, like more than a decade now.

00;36;28;10 - 00;36;30;17

So every year, the same thing

00;36;30;17 - 00;36;33;17

I would say those are some of the things

I think it's a form factor issue.

00;36;33;17 - 00;36;35;22

I think it's the optics are not there yet.

00;36;35;22 - 00;36;36;21

You know what

00;36;36;21 - 00;36;38;29

what the meta glasses do,

do they bend light

00;36;38;29 - 00;36;41;28

so you can actually eventually

have your holograms in front of you?

00;36;41;28 - 00;36;43;01

That's really hard to do.

00;36;43;01 - 00;36;45;12

Very few people can do that with optics

right now.

00;36;45;12 - 00;36;48;18

So those true

holographic glasses that we are promise

00;36;48;18 - 00;36;50;28

like that's further into the future

right now.

00;36;50;28 - 00;36;52;28

The cost is going to be expensive.

00;36;52;28 - 00;36;54;03

The form factor is not there.

00;36;54;03 - 00;36;55;21

It's got to look really stylish

00;36;55;21 - 00;36;58;08

for us to eventually

want to wear this on our faces.

00;36;58;08 - 00;37;00;27

Or, you know, we're a device on us

all the time.

00;37;00;27 - 00;37;04;06

So I would think I think that I think

one of the biggest issues here

00;37;04;28 - 00;37;09;06

that is

there's two issues here, I would say, is

00;37;10;08 - 00;37;11;17

the fact that in order for

00;37;11;17 - 00;37;15;00

a lot of these devices to be out there

in the wild running at the same time,

00;37;15;10 - 00;37;19;09

you have to have connectivity

that currently does not exist, right?

00;37;19;22 - 00;37;20;24

5G is not going to cut it.

00;37;20;24 - 00;37;23;18

It's going to be 60, 60 plus,

or you're going to need something else.

00;37;23;18 - 00;37;26;17

So I think that that is something

that most people are not thinking about.

00;37;26;17 - 00;37;30;07

It's like if you really are going to have

whatever device you end up using,

00;37;31;04 - 00;37;34;04

millions of them, people

wearing them on the edge,

00;37;34;09 - 00;37;36;26

like we're talking about,

like edge, we're talking about computing.

00;37;36;26 - 00;37;40;28

You're talking about, you know,

connectivity levels we've never seen. So

00;37;42;03 - 00;37;43;12

so yeah, that's that's an issue.

00;37;43;12 - 00;37;45;11

If you don't have enough

00;37;45;11 - 00;37;48;01

connectivity, you're not going to power

all these devices,

00;37;48;01 - 00;37;50;05

you know, at the same time. Right?

00;37;50;05 - 00;37;53;01

We all have our phones

and we're able to navigate the world

00;37;53;01 - 00;37;55;19

because there's, you know, 5G bases

and there's all these sorts of things.

00;37;55;19 - 00;37;58;00

So, I think that

there's really interesting work

00;37;58;00 - 00;38;02;13

there being done with what's called radio

access networks and putting AI compute,

00;38;02;13 - 00;38;05;13

in 5G bases

to try to bring that closer to the user.

00;38;05;15 - 00;38;07;06

But it's early days, right?

00;38;07;06 - 00;38;09;05

So I don't think we're going to see that

connectivity

00;38;09;05 - 00;38;11;10

till, you know, maybe five years from now.

00;38;11;10 - 00;38;11;28

So that's one.

00;38;11;28 - 00;38;16;11

And I would say the other question and one

that I posed myself is the data centers.

00;38;16;11 - 00;38;17;02

Right?

00;38;17;02 - 00;38;20;00

Everyone talks about data

centers, data centers when it comes to AI.

00;38;20;00 - 00;38;24;28

If you are truly going into AI

and then physical AI,

00;38;25;11 - 00;38;28;07

what these data centers

are going to able to do is power that

00;38;28;07 - 00;38;31;06

future state and power these devices.

00;38;31;06 - 00;38;32;02

Right.

00;38;32;02 - 00;38;35;22

And at the end of the day,

we are going to need a lot of data,

00;38;35;22 - 00;38;39;21

which requires a lot of data centers,

and that requires a lot of energy.

00;38;39;21 - 00;38;43;00

So there is that push pool of like,

do we really want this?

00;38;43;20 - 00;38;44;25

Right.

00;38;44;25 - 00;38;46;24

So so I would say

those are some of the things I would say.

00;38;46;24 - 00;38;48;10

But yeah, it's it's a form factor issue.

00;38;48;10 - 00;38;50;25

It's the fact that, you know, the devices,

00;38;50;25 - 00;38;52;29

you have to have a problem

that you need to solve.

00;38;52;29 - 00;38;54;24

Right. Instead of like,

oh, I'm finding it.

00;38;54;24 - 00;38;55;08

Yeah.

00;38;55;08 - 00;38;58;07

Like, what is the problem

this solves for me at this point,

00;38;58;07 - 00;38;58;27

nothing Well, that's.

00;38;58;27 - 00;39;01;19

And that's

that's exactly what I'm caught up on.

00;39;01;19 - 00;39;05;20

Because, you know, you ask this question,

which I think is what a lot of the

00;39;05;20 - 00;39;09;08

Silicon Valley firms are asking, which is

what's going to replace the mobile phone.

00;39;09;16 - 00;39;14;11

And, and to me like that is such

a non like consumer facing question.

00;39;14;11 - 00;39;15;26

That's such like a business question.

00;39;15;26 - 00;39;17;12

It's like how do we make more money.

00;39;17;12 - 00;39;20;01

Like how do like how do we.

00;39;20;01 - 00;39;22;24

Yeah. Solution in search of a problem.

Like an end to me.

00;39;22;24 - 00;39;24;03

I'm going to rant here for a second.

00;39;24;03 - 00;39;27;12

And maybe I'm totally wrong,

but like like to me like

00;39;28;06 - 00;39;30;01

Steve Jobs never approached it.

00;39;30;01 - 00;39;33;15

Like, you know,

I need something to replace the iMac.

00;39;33;15 - 00;39;35;09

Therefore I'm going to create the iPhone.

00;39;35;09 - 00;39;38;07

It's more about like, what could we unlock

00;39;38;07 - 00;39;41;26

by people having, you know, all the power

of a computer in the palm of their hands?

00;39;42;04 - 00;39;45;23

Because you have to start thinking

about the use case, the killer app.

00;39;45;23 - 00;39;49;28

And I just to me,

so much of what we've seen is missing that

00;39;49;28 - 00;39;53;02

and coming back to it again, like,

that's why I'm sort of excited about,

00;39;53;12 - 00;39;54;21

you know, the Google Beam stuff.

00;39;54;21 - 00;39;57;26

But I don't know that that's the test

I use

00;39;57;26 - 00;40;00;26

when I look at

some of these things is like, what?

00;40;01;11 - 00;40;04;21

Why should I, as a consumer

be excited versus just like,

00;40;04;26 - 00;40;07;13

you know, and I work with an awful

lot of tech geeks and they're like,

00;40;07;13 - 00;40;09;01

the tech is exciting to them.

00;40;09;01 - 00;40;09;24

But like, come on,

00;40;09;24 - 00;40;14;18

are you ever going to get to scale

just because the tech itself is exciting?

00;40;15;02 - 00;40;16;25

Yeah. And I fall into those groups, right?

00;40;16;25 - 00;40;19;07

I speak in a silo

like I'm surrounded by tech people.

00;40;19;07 - 00;40;22;00

And we usually are speaking in silos.

I'm like, oh, my gosh, the field of view.

00;40;22;00 - 00;40;22;16

Who cares?

00;40;22;16 - 00;40;24;17

I don't think the consumer cares

about the field of view.

00;40;24;17 - 00;40;26;25

Right?

What's the problem solving for them?

00;40;26;25 - 00;40;30;02

So I will say that I do

think there is a level of hope

00;40;30;10 - 00;40;34;16

because it is Johnny

IV who's being brought into OpenAI.

00;40;34;25 - 00;40;37;06

With his startup company

and building something.

00;40;37;06 - 00;40;38;04

So I think there is some level

00;40;38;04 - 00;40;41;24

of hope of like, oh, it might be a great

UX and a great experience, right.

00;40;42;08 - 00;40;44;09

So we'll have to see it.

00;40;44;09 - 00;40;46;03

I mean, I have no insider information.

00;40;46;03 - 00;40;48;25

I don't know what he's building. Right.

So we'll have to see.

00;40;48;25 - 00;40;49;15

We'll have to see there.

00;40;49;15 - 00;40;53;09

We've got you know, obviously companies

like Humane and Rabid that presented ideas

00;40;53;09 - 00;40;56;09

and concepts on what could replace

the mobile phone, and they failed.

00;40;56;24 - 00;40;58;13

Right. So I'm not sure.

00;40;58;13 - 00;41;02;08

I will say

from an anthropological perspective,

00;41;02;08 - 00;41;05;21

let's say this in a technologically

technological history perspective,

00;41;06;07 - 00;41;09;00

there is a documentary

that I think should be required

00;41;09;00 - 00;41;12;00

watching for anyone in tech,

it's called General Magic.

00;41;12;01 - 00;41;13;17

I'm not sure if you watched it.

00;41;13;17 - 00;41;15;12

General magic. So. Right.

00;41;15;12 - 00;41;15;26

It came.

00;41;15;26 - 00;41;17;20

Okay, this this documentary came out

00;41;17;20 - 00;41;21;01

right around the time

that Magic Leap had their massive layoff.

00;41;21;11 - 00;41;23;25

I was one of the people at Magic Leap

that got laid off.

00;41;23;25 - 00;41;26;25

And this this documentary called General

Magic comes out

00;41;26;27 - 00;41;28;14

that has nothing to do with Magic Leap.

00;41;28;14 - 00;41;32;17

Magic Leap, but it is about a company

that had the idea and the concept

00;41;32;17 - 00;41;37;01

of the smartphone

before anyone else did a and it failed.

00;41;37;01 - 00;41;38;07

It raised a lot of money.

00;41;38;07 - 00;41;40;19

It ended up failing,

but a lot of the people that worked at

00;41;40;19 - 00;41;44;17

General Magic went on to Apple,

and they were part of the core team that

00;41;47;17 - 00;41;49;29

Cool.

00;41;49;29 - 00;41;50;19

Right.

00;41;50;19 - 00;41;53;24

a problem for anyone,

but eventually the basis

00;41;53;24 - 00;41;56;24

of what was created

did become the smartphone.

00;41;57;00 - 00;41;58;13

So I recommend it to anyone.

00;41;58;13 - 00;42;00;20

General magic. It Cool.

00;42;00;20 - 00;42;02;15

when it comes to tech. Cool.

00;42;02;15 - 00;42;03;24

Now I'll check that out.

00;42;03;24 - 00;42;06;20

I wanted to ask you. You're.

00;42;06;20 - 00;42;09;06

I sense you're kind of an optimist

when it comes to this stuff.

00;42;09;06 - 00;42;12;06

You're always excited about the next thing

tech is exciting to you.

00;42;12;19 - 00;42;14;27

I want to flip that on its head

a little bit.

00;42;14;27 - 00;42;17;12

Is there anything right now

that you're seeing in tech

00;42;17;12 - 00;42;20;17

that you think is B.S,

or that you think is like way overhyped?

00;42;21;29 - 00;42;24;10

That is way overhyped.

00;42;24;10 - 00;42;27;28

Gosh, what, am I a skeptic You.

00;42;28;19 - 00;42;29;18

remain so positive.

00;42;29;18 - 00;42;32;11

Like, I feel like I need to remain

positive for my kids.

00;42;32;11 - 00;42;34;16

In some ways, I'm, like,

all a tech optimist.

00;42;34;16 - 00;42;36;20

I'm not a tech. I'm not utopian, okay?

00;42;36;20 - 00;42;38;04

I'm not utopian in that sense.

00;42;38;04 - 00;42;40;10

It's not all popcorn and unicorns.

00;42;40;10 - 00;42;42;22

I'm more open,

which is like, you know, technology

00;42;42;22 - 00;42;45;22

and society working together

for the betterment of society.

00;42;45;28 - 00;42;48;01

So, what am I?

00;42;48;01 - 00;42;51;11

I don't know, I mean,

maybe this is what I'll say is, I do think

00;42;51;11 - 00;42;56;14

that in the current state of general large

language models and generative AI,

00;42;57;16 - 00;42;59;00

it is incredible technology.

00;42;59;00 - 00;43;00;13

AI will disrupt the world.

00;43;00;13 - 00;43;02;28

I don't know if just LMS

are going to disrupt the world.

00;43;02;28 - 00;43;05;20

I think it's a bigger conversation

about computer vision.

00;43;05;20 - 00;43;08;22

A lot of different parts of AI,

not just LMS.

00;43;09;03 - 00;43;12;26

So I do see some of the valuations

that baffle me,

00;43;13;08 - 00;43;16;09

that make me feel like is

how is this sustainable in the long term?

00;43;17;02 - 00;43;20;29

So that's one,

I think that we people are racing towards

00;43;20;29 - 00;43;24;27

data center construction

at a really fast speed,

00;43;24;27 - 00;43;27;29

without thinking about the,

you know, the, the

00;43;28;21 - 00;43;32;07

climate aspect of it, of you can't just

continue building all these data

00;43;32;07 - 00;43;35;07

centers, find other solutions

on the way to power these things.

00;43;35;10 - 00;43;36;19

So I would say those things

00;43;36;19 - 00;43;40;29

I am concerned about some of the things

that I'm seeing, with replacing

00;43;42;04 - 00;43;43;05

human connection

00;43;43;05 - 00;43;47;00

with robots or AI that worries me

immensely.

00;43;47;03 - 00;43;49;13

You know, I still.

00;43;49;13 - 00;43;49;26

Yeah.

00;43;49;26 - 00;43;53;05

Like, there's actually a survey

that was done recently.

00;43;53;05 - 00;43;56;05

It said that a lot of Gen Z would marry

and I,

00;43;56;05 - 00;43;59;07

you know, sample data or whatever, like

there's bias there, like, for us, like,

00;43;59;09 - 00;44;02;11

I don't think all of Gen Z would say that

or like half of them would say that.

00;44;03;11 - 00;44;06;05

But but still,

like things like that concern me,

00;44;06;05 - 00;44;10;23

concern me when it comes to like,

if we lose what truly makes us human.

00;44;10;23 - 00;44;13;13

Like, what does this mean?

At the end of the day?

00;44;13;13 - 00;44;17;20

There's also a race, I think,

to using AI agents on a constant basis.

00;44;18;09 - 00;44;20;25

I'll give you an

and we'll go back to the dating example,

00;44;20;25 - 00;44;22;16

because it's obviously where

I'm spending a lot of the time

00;44;22;16 - 00;44;25;02

thinking through how to disrupt

the sector is like,

00;44;25;02 - 00;44;28;01

if my agent is dating your AI agent

and we actually meet

00;44;28;01 - 00;44;30;19

in the physical world,

but there's no connection, like,

00;44;30;19 - 00;44;32;09

you know, or I don't What was the point?

00;44;32;09 - 00;44;33;08

Yeah. that. Right.

00;44;33;08 - 00;44;36;15

If it's a Yeah. thing and I meet you,

my agent says you're perfect for me,

00;44;36;15 - 00;44;38;07

but then I meet you,

and there's just like,

00;44;38;07 - 00;44;41;12

I think there's something that we still

we still to this day cannot offload

00;44;41;12 - 00;44;44;12

to technology. Right. We might one day.

00;44;44;18 - 00;44;44;25

Right.

00;44;44;25 - 00;44;47;26

But I think right now

there's still an element to humanity.

00;44;49;10 - 00;44;51;28

So maybe maybe there is a premium

to being human.

00;44;51;28 - 00;44;52;13

Right.

00;44;52;13 - 00;44;56;01

I heard Gary Vaynerchuk the other day

saying that in the future

00;44;56;01 - 00;44;59;01

we're going to pay people to walk with us,

like to go take a walk with us.

00;44;59;13 - 00;45;02;11

And that's stuck with me. It's it's done.

00;45;02;11 - 00;45;03;06

Do you think about that?

00;45;03;06 - 00;45;04;21

That's

something we're going to do in the future,

00;45;04;21 - 00;45;07;21

but potentially because there is going

to be a premium on human connection.

00;45;09;08 - 00;45;10;14

Interesting.

00;45;10;14 - 00;45;13;11

The that the,

the dating piece is really interesting.

00;45;13;11 - 00;45;14;17

And I'll come back to it for a second.

00;45;14;17 - 00;45;18;27

I mean and look I was fortunate enough

I use the word

00;45;18;27 - 00;45;23;13

fortunate to have found a partner before

like the age of like the dating apps.

00;45;23;13 - 00;45;27;21

But I feel like anyone I talk to

right now, like,

00;45;28;08 - 00;45;33;04

has only negative things to say about,

like online dating and even the same apps.

00;45;33;04 - 00;45;35;12

And I'm yeah,

we we all know what the apps are,

00;45;35;12 - 00;45;39;15

but even the same apps that ten years ago,

I feel like had a better reputation.

00;45;39;24 - 00;45;42;24

I don't know if they've changed

or expectations have changed, but

00;45;43;08 - 00;45;47;14

you know, it, it feels right for to just,

disruption, doesn't it?

00;45;47;15 - 00;45;49;02

Like, is that your experience?

00;45;49;02 - 00;45;49;28

Absolutely.

00;45;49;28 - 00;45;54;19

So as a you know, as a student of life

and as someone that wants to disrupt

00;45;54;19 - 00;45;57;02

that sector, I'm spending an insane

amount of time looking at it.

00;45;57;02 - 00;45;57;19

Right.

00;45;57;19 - 00;46;00;16

What works, you know, this is the thing.

00;46;00;16 - 00;46;01;08

And I go back to this

00;46;01;08 - 00;46;04;19

like if we as humans did in 3D, why are we

still dating in 2D in these apps?

00;46;05;06 - 00;46;07;14

Like I'm

making a judgment on a picture like,

00;46;08;14 - 00;46;09;16

is that what really happens?

00;46;09;16 - 00;46;11;22

I mean, you make a judgment in person,

but at least there's

00;46;11;22 - 00;46;14;22

a volumetric component of it,

and it's all your senses involved in,

00;46;14;27 - 00;46;17;09

you know, being judging the person

in front of you. Right.

00;46;17;09 - 00;46;18;23

I'm seeing several things.

00;46;18;23 - 00;46;21;23

I'm seeing a revival of in person.

00;46;21;26 - 00;46;25;29

So a lot more speed dating, a lot more

social happy hours for signal singles.

00;46;25;29 - 00;46;27;08

Like, I'm seeing a lot of that.

00;46;27;08 - 00;46;29;14

Running clubs are hot, right?

For meeting people.

00;46;29;14 - 00;46;33;02

There's kind of this resurgence

in that in person, which I think is great

00;46;33;02 - 00;46;34;18

because that's how people used to meet.

00;46;34;18 - 00;46;38;28

But on the other side, I see my kids

who are Gen Alpha starting to date.

00;46;39;26 - 00;46;40;17

You know, they're starting

00;46;40;17 - 00;46;42;08

they're starting their dating journeys

at the same time

00;46;42;08 - 00;46;44;23

as I'm going back into the into the,

you know, into the field.

00;46;44;23 - 00;46;47;18

So, so it's interesting

to watch how they're dating

00;46;47;18 - 00;46;50;11

and how they're dating in gaming spaces.

Right?

00;46;50;11 - 00;46;53;03

How they're using social media

like Snapchat

00;46;53;03 - 00;46;56;03

and things

to date, all these sorts of things.

00;46;56;05 - 00;46;59;17

I personally believe

that the solution to solving,

00;47;00;04 - 00;47;02;26

you know, the swipe

fatigue is not more swipes.

00;47;02;26 - 00;47;05;12

I think it's about interactivity

and presence,

00;47;05;12 - 00;47;08;06

because when you're able to tap to

to do an activity

00;47;08;06 - 00;47;11;18

like a joint experience with someone,

you learn something about them, right?

00;47;11;18 - 00;47;11;21

Yeah.

00;47;11;21 - 00;47;14;21

You can make a better judgment as to,

is this the right partner for me or no?

00;47;15;00 - 00;47;18;23

So one of the things that I was proposing

is creating more gaming

00;47;18;23 - 00;47;20;22

and dating startups,

especially when you talk about Gen

00;47;20;22 - 00;47;24;09

Alpha growing up and starting to date,

if they can go into these apps and yeah,

00;47;24;10 - 00;47;28;00

see the profile and stuff like that,

but maybe go and do a virtual bowling date

00;47;28;00 - 00;47;31;18

before they meet in the physical world,

virtual cooking, a virtual escape room

00;47;31;22 - 00;47;32;28

kind of having that experience

00;47;32;28 - 00;47;35;18

where they're actually engaging

with someone in a 3D form

00;47;35;18 - 00;47;37;11

and kind of doing an experience together,

00;47;37;11 - 00;47;40;15

I think that will give you a more informed

decision than five pictures.

00;47;40;22 - 00;47;41;05

Right?

00;47;41;05 - 00;47;43;21

And a profile

that was created with I Yeah.

00;47;43;21 - 00;47;45;29

Well, and I really like that.

00;47;45;29 - 00;47;49;13

And you know

the idea of like gaming, dating.

00;47;49;13 - 00;47;52;13

I really like,

I like the idea that dating doesn't

00;47;52;13 - 00;47;55;23

have to take center stage,

that it's connected to something else.

00;47;55;23 - 00;47;58;06

And in some ways like that's like

the original form, like,

00;47;58;06 - 00;47;59;25

you know, the old fashioned form

of dating is, you know,

00;47;59;25 - 00;48;01;12

you meet people when you're,

00;48;01;12 - 00;48;03;23

you know, going out with friends

or dancing or whatever.

00;48;03;23 - 00;48;05;02

But I guess that,

00;48;05;02 - 00;48;08;02

like the part that concerns me

and I know I'm not alone here is that,

00;48;08;02 - 00;48;11;02

you know, if you're if you're Tinder and

I'll pick on Tinder, it can be any of em.

00;48;11;03 - 00;48;14;15

It feels like you have a perverse

incentive to actually keep people

00;48;14;15 - 00;48;18;22

on your platform and not help them

find a partner and get off of it. Right.

00;48;18;22 - 00;48;23;22

And so if it only exists

and it has a financial incentive

00;48;23;22 - 00;48;28;15

to keep you in this swiping pattern, like,

isn't that less healthy then?

00;48;28;19 - 00;48;32;25

Or we happened to meet because we were

playing, you know, Minecraft or whatever.

00;48;33;02 - 00;48;37;13

And we have this shared hobby where

I was able to meet someone like minded.

00;48;38;00 - 00;48;38;24

There's the missing.

00;48;38;24 - 00;48;40;21

The missed opportunity is that.

00;48;40;21 - 00;48;42;16

Let's say

you match with someone in this app.

00;48;42;16 - 00;48;44;17

Through this.

Through the gaming aspect. Right?

00;48;45;23 - 00;48;46;21

Why not?

00;48;46;21 - 00;48;49;28

After you match and you start creating

a relationship, can you start creating

00;48;49;28 - 00;48;53;10

kind of like,

almost like an album of your relationship?

00;48;53;14 - 00;48;57;04

Virtual, like a virtual timeline

of your relationships?

00;48;57;05 - 00;48;58;09

I think there's ways to be able

00;48;58;09 - 00;49;02;04

to use this technology for good

and for increasing intimacy.

00;49;02;04 - 00;49;05;01

So one thing that I'm launching is called

the Tech Intimacy Scale

00;49;05;01 - 00;49;07;20

on how to use technology

to make your relationships better.

00;49;07;20 - 00;49;09;11

I'm starting with dating,

but then eventually it's going

00;49;09;11 - 00;49;11;17

to be parenting

and eventually going to be at work, right?

00;49;11;17 - 00;49;12;24

Because I do think that right now

00;49;12;24 - 00;49;15;19

you can divorce technology

from your day to day, right?

00;49;15;19 - 00;49;16;10

And yes,

00;49;16;10 - 00;49;17;27

you can use it

to make your relationships better,

00;49;17;27 - 00;49;18;24

or you can make it

00;49;18;24 - 00;49;22;02

down to level one where it's like

isolation or you're like completely,

00;49;22;17 - 00;49;25;06

you know, using technology

instead of engaging with humans.

00;49;25;06 - 00;49;27;09

So I think that

there's going to be a variation.

00;49;27;09 - 00;49;30;11

I think what a lot of these app companies

and the ones that I'm talking

00;49;30;11 - 00;49;34;24

to, I'm like, it's not about adding more

AI, it's not about that.

00;49;34;24 - 00;49;35;12

At the end of the day,

00;49;35;12 - 00;49;39;05

what people are craving

is connection and presence and being seen.

00;49;39;12 - 00;49;43;17

And if you add more AI and have your agent

and my agent, I don't feel seen, right?

00;49;43;17 - 00;49;45;18

So I think that there needs

to be a level of gaming.

00;49;45;18 - 00;49;48;03

Let's be honest, everyone's playing

games on these apps, right?

00;49;48;03 - 00;49;49;24

So why don't we

play the right type of game,

00;49;50;26 - 00;49;53;03

you know,

and add these types of experiences.

00;49;53;03 - 00;49;55;22

And then why don't you

why don't you transition

00;49;55;22 - 00;50;00;02

when when a couple meets starting

to create that, that kind of like virtual,

00;50;00;15 - 00;50;03;22

you know, virtual,

photo album of sorts, let's call it that.

00;50;03;22 - 00;50;04;25

I'm still I'm still working through

00;50;04;25 - 00;50;08;07

what that means, but ways

to kind of incentivize that relationship.

00;50;08;07 - 00;50;11;04

But it doesn't have to be like meet

some on the app and get off the app.

00;50;11;04 - 00;50;12;15

It could be meet someone on the app.

00;50;12;15 - 00;50;14;20

And then how do you grow that?

00;50;14;20 - 00;50;15;28

You know and use the tools.

00;50;15;28 - 00;50;18;28

The technology allows you

to have to make your relationship better.

00;50;19;05 - 00;50;20;02

So. So yeah,

00;50;20;02 - 00;50;21;25

it's something that I'm spending

a lot of time thinking through

00;50;21;25 - 00;50;22;22

and something that I'm going to be

00;50;22;22 - 00;50;26;05

kind of like launching pretty soon,

because I feel strongly about this,

00;50;26;16 - 00;50;27;21

because I'm living through it,

00;50;27;21 - 00;50;31;03

and because I'm seeing my kids

starting to go into this world.

00;50;31;29 - 00;50;36;06

I, I love that, and to me,

it ties together so much of what

00;50;36;06 - 00;50;39;21

we've talked about today, which is that

human connection and intimacy

00;50;40;08 - 00;50;44;20

like these are the reasons the technology

is there at all at the end of the day.

00;50;44;27 - 00;50;48;01

And it feels like if you get that right,

there's so much

00;50;48;01 - 00;50;51;01

to be gained for,

you know, for individuals, for people.

00;50;51;01 - 00;50;53;12

And if you get that wrong,

then you know, who care.

00;50;53;12 - 00;50;57;05

You know, we either end up in a,

you know, in a state of apathy or,

00;50;57;05 - 00;50;58;22

you know, worse off than we were before.

00;50;58;22 - 00;51;02;15

So I love that message for,

you know, individuals

00;51;02;15 - 00;51;05;15

or even for, you know, technology leaders

listening to this.

00;51;06;01 - 00;51;08;09

Cathy, I wanted to say thank you so much

for joining today,

00;51;08;09 - 00;51;11;19

that this has been super insightful,

and I really appreciated our conversation.

00;51;12;06 - 00;51;13;17

Thank you I love being here.

00;51;13;17 - 00;51;16;00

And yeah I'm glad we took some turns

that we weren't expecting.

00;51;16;00 - 00;51;19;00

But it's going to be useful

to folks out there.

00;51;19;01 - 00;51;19;23

Absolutely

00;51;28;16 - 00;51;28;19

And.