Digital Disruption
with Geoff Nielson
Our Guest Claire Stapleton Discusses
Google Insider Reveals How Greed Killed Big Tech
Claire Stapleton spent 12 years at Google, going from one of the company's biggest believers to one of its most prominent employee organizers. In this episode, former Google communications leader, Google Walkout organizer, and Don’t Be Evil author Claire Stapleton reveals what happened inside Google as its celebrated culture of openness, employee empowerment, and idealism began to change.
She takes us inside Google’s transformation from a company that believed people were at the heart of its success to a Big Tech giant grappling with bureaucracy, employee distrust, workplace activism, and questions about its values. She explains what led thousands of Google employees to walk out in protest, what happened after employees challenged leadership, and why speaking up inside powerful organizations can come with serious consequences.
We also talk about AI and the future of work, tech layoffs, corporate culture, employee activism, leadership, workplace ethics, the changing relationship between employers and employees, and why the sweeping promises coming from today’s AI companies remind Stapleton of Google’s early years. As companies once again compete for elite technology talent while promising to change the world, could Silicon Valley be repeating the same cycle?
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00;00;00;29 - 00;00;04;21
In those early years, it was sort of like,
there's nothing we can't solve together.
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And the bedrock of that is people.
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And also that I think that you see
the shift in that language now, today
00;00;08;29 - 00;00;12;27
and the values because waves of layoffs,
the threat of, you know, AI
00;00;12;28 - 00;00;14;02
replacing jobs.
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No one is saying from Google anymore
that people are the heart of what we do.
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If anything, it's sort of like,
prove that you're better than I. You know,
00;00;20;11 - 00;00;23;07
it's just like all these companies
constantly threatening redundancy.
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So they're into their coders now.
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Things have really changed.
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This is a show about the future of tech
and the future of work.
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I'm Geoff Nielsen, and today
I'm talking with the author of Don't
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Be Evil, Clare Stapleton, a 12 year
vet of Google.
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Clare went from being a leader
of communications
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to an organizer of the Google walkout,
to leaving
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the organization completely,
not without acrimony.
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Clare had a front row
seat to what she called a loss
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of a moral compass in Big tech
and is telling the story in her new book.
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If Google were the only company
in the world to be accused
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of losing its moral compass,
I wouldn't be all that interested.
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But virtually every organization
I've ever worked with
00;01;04;18 - 00;01;08;08
has had some version of this battle,
with their employees being somewhere
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between frustrated, too disheartened
to completely checked out.
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Few of us have fought the good fight
as courageously as Clare,
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so I want to know
what we can learn from her.
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Should we expect our employers to act
morally?
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What can we do
if we're seeing bad behavior?
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And how can we be a force for good
and build organizations that aren't evil?
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Let's find out.
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Clare, thanks so much for joining today.
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Super excited to have you.
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I wanted to,
I guess maybe start at the, the beginning.
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So, you know, you were
you were at Google an awfully long time,
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I think something like 12 years.
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And, you know, at the beginning, to me,
it's very much a story of,
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you know, you very much being,
you know, Team Google,
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you know, card carrying, flag waving,
you know, member of Team Google.
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And, you know, the story
kind of goes downhill from there.
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So I'm I'm curious from your perspective
to hear you tell it, like what happened.
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Yeah.
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I mean, that really
is the entire arc of the book.
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I, you know, I,
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I was hired straight out of college
through college recruiting,
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which is a very rare window of time
that they actually did that at the company
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had a huge hiring burst around 2007
when I was graduating from college.
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And, I was an English major,
and I got a job
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in the communications department,
which seemed like, okay,
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this is a good kind of corporate job
if you're a kind of humanities student.
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And I wasn't even
particularly interested in technology,
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but it was impossible
to not be sort of drawn into the lore
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around the company
at that particular moment.
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They were on the cover of,
you know, fortune, Best Places to Work.
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And, you know, they're all of this,
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you know, coverage of
of the kind of lavish, perks of the campus
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and the basic brief of the job was like
to become a corporate storyteller.
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So it's sort of like, where did my,
you know, genuine idealism and enthusiasm
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began
and the kind of, requirements of the job.
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And because it was sort of like they
wanted enthusiasm, they wanted idealism,
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they wanted people who could be kind of
passionate spokespeople for the company.
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And I thought, you know, hey,
I can do that.
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And, you know, it was, coming in,
going from college into this environment.
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It was quite intoxicating
because you're kind of being
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pumped with this rhetoric
about how special you are.
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I mean, there's, you know,
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from the first day of orientation,
they're saying, you know, we got,
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you know, 3000 applications a minute or,
you know, something,
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I don't know the exact stat something
kind of like hyperbolic.
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And you're the chosen one.
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And this is the golden ticket.
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You know, particularly as the, you know,
job market has, like, ebbed and flowed
00;03;32;04 - 00;03;35;09
and the, you know, dot.com
the industry has gone
00;03;35;09 - 00;03;37;16
through so many different iterations,
it did feel like,
00;03;37;16 - 00;03;41;11
wow, we got the kind of like,
you know, captured seat here for this.
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Like, you know, amazing era of technology
that's dawning.
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I think that, you know,
sort of inherent to my role
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was, a sense of the mission
and the purpose of the company.
00;03;52;10 - 00;03;56;25
So I think that we now everyone
sort of agrees that these big tech
00;03;56;25 - 00;04;00;28
companies are very kind
of complicated institutional figures.
00;04;00;28 - 00;04;03;26
And our, you know, governing our society,
and they feel more nefarious.
00;04;03;26 - 00;04;08;05
But, you know, if you if you kind of
put yourself back in 2007, the,
00;04;08;21 - 00;04;10;14
you know,
this is right before Obama was elected,
00;04;10;14 - 00;04;13;16
it was like this moment of kind
of like American optimism.
00;04;14;01 - 00;04;17;06
And tech companies are right, particularly
companies like Google or these like,
00;04;17;14 - 00;04;21;14
amazing American Stories
that two guys in a garage, two geeky
00;04;21;14 - 00;04;25;13
geniuses are going to come through and
kind of solve all the world's problems.
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So as I was going back
and writing the book,
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I was really interested to kind of
to track how the rhetoric of the company,
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kind of really thickened and evolved,
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you know, and the company,
culture was a really big part of that.
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It was a big part of what the company was
sort of, exporting.
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And anyway, so I, you know,
I spent a few years in Mountain View
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working closely with the founders
and a bunch of other executives
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on the whole, a great experience.
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And I sort of wanted to try something
else.
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Got a transfer to the New York office.
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And then that next seven years,
I guess, tracks, kind of slow.
00;04;59;06 - 00;05;04;14
And then fast, disillusionment arc where,
you know, I had a really difficult time
00;05;04;14 - 00;05;08;12
and, you know, just kind of normal,
difficult, toxic work experience.
00;05;09;09 - 00;05;12;16
Still kind of caught in the lore
and mythology of the company
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because I was working at this in-house
creative agency called Creative Lab.
00;05;16;09 - 00;05;17;14
It was a really tough experience.
00;05;17;14 - 00;05;19;19
But then I, you know,
I moved over to YouTube marketing.
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YouTube was, like, hotter than hot.
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This is in the sort of like mid-aughts,
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but was coming kind of complex
and was really interesting place to work.
00;05;29;05 - 00;05;33;03
Also, we were continuing to kind of like,
cheerlead about it and disseminate
00;05;33;03 - 00;05;36;07
the values of the company
as a communications marketing person.
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And then, you know, I had a kid,
00;05;39;26 - 00;05;44;01
my eye was starting to see things
in a kind of like a bit different way.
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And then
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Donald Trump was elected.
00;05;46;28 - 00;05;49;07
There was a whole,
00;05;49;07 - 00;05;52;20
a whole kind of uproar at the company
around a big scandal,
00;05;52;20 - 00;05;56;28
a New York Times story about,
executive payouts for sexual harassment.
00;05;57;20 - 00;06;00;27
Anyway, I ended up getting into labor
organizing and organized
00;06;00;27 - 00;06;05;05
the Google walkout,
along with a great group of women and and,
00;06;05;29 - 00;06;08;22
you can imagine my Google career
didn't last much longer after that.
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Yeah.
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So that's the basic gist of the book.
00;06;12;29 - 00;06;14;16
It's really interesting.
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I mean, it's a crazy story with,
you know, so many chapters and it's funny.
00;06;19;06 - 00;06;22;06
I mean, you kind of laid it out,
but it feels like it's almost an arc of
00;06;22;21 - 00;06;25;07
American history
and like to got to go back
00;06;25;07 - 00;06;28;20
to the period of the,
you know, the, the mid-aughts
00;06;29;24 - 00;06;31;14
there's this sense that you're
talking about about Google.
00;06;31;14 - 00;06;35;17
And I remember the period where they seem
to have this vision of, like
00;06;36;16 - 00;06;40;23
this forward looking, very modern company
that had these values
00;06;40;23 - 00;06;44;11
that transcended what you would
typically expect from a corporation.
00;06;44;11 - 00;06;47;28
And, you know, that I think is some of
the idealism you were talking about.
00;06;48;03 - 00;06;49;18
Can you add a little bit more color
to that?
00;06;49;18 - 00;06;51;13
Like what what was the culture?
00;06;51;13 - 00;06;55;08
What were some of those values that they
were espousing that felt so intoxicating?
00;06;55;14 - 00;06;57;26
And and did you find
they were actually living at at that time?
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Yeah.
00;06;59;07 - 00;06;59;23
I mean, I
00;06;59;23 - 00;07;01;13
used to give the tours of the campus
00;07;01;13 - 00;07;04;29
and the office design
was, was, was really the a bedrock of it
00;07;04;29 - 00;07;10;13
because everything in that, moment
was a feverish rush to capture talent.
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So, you know, I'm like a comms person.
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People come in as community
or as customer service reps or something,
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as sort of like a service person.
00;07;16;21 - 00;07;19;24
But everything was about serving engineers
00;07;19;24 - 00;07;22;24
and rock star product talent. So,
00;07;23;07 - 00;07;28;10
they had people very thoughtfully design
offices that would engineer collaboration.
00;07;28;10 - 00;07;31;07
And that was the idea of the lunch table.
And people stick around for lunch.
00;07;31;07 - 00;07;32;09
They're not wasting this time.
00;07;32;09 - 00;07;35;07
Sure, it's a sort of a productivity
move as well.
00;07;35;07 - 00;07;38;05
But, you know,
the office design was very open
00;07;38;05 - 00;07;41;09
and flat to reflect that good ideas
come from anywhere.
00;07;41;09 - 00;07;41;26
And, you know,
00;07;41;26 - 00;07;45;02
anyone can come in and, you know, build
the next Gmail or whatever it was.
00;07;46;13 - 00;07;47;16
So I think that the, you know,
00;07;47;16 - 00;07;51;18
the culture was,
also very much about employee voice.
00;07;51;18 - 00;07;56;01
And I worked on this weekly meeting, TGIF
with the hosted by the founders, where,
00;07;56;16 - 00;07;59;10
yes, there'd be some sort of presentation
and they talk about the product
00;07;59;10 - 00;08;03;27
updates of the week, but most of it was
a Q&A with employees, and I think it was,
00;08;05;10 - 00;08;09;15
it felt sort of radical at the time
because people would line up and come
00;08;09;15 - 00;08;12;06
with their questions and oftentime
the questions were very pointed
00;08;12;06 - 00;08;16;19
or kind of critical about strategic
direction or a misstep or and it was,
00;08;17;14 - 00;08;19;26
there was the sense
that the executives are so accessible
00;08;19;26 - 00;08;22;26
and they're like peers
and maybe they'd even course correct.
00;08;23;10 - 00;08;25;21
So I think that there's that
where they really wanted
00;08;25;21 - 00;08;28;28
to empower the employees because they felt
like that's how they do their best work.
00;08;28;28 - 00;08;32;07
And I think that, you know,
when Larry Page kind of cycled
00;08;32;07 - 00;08;35;07
in and out of being the CEO over
the sort of early period of time,
00;08;35;11 - 00;08;39;01
his second stint at this was
was when I was in the Commerce Department.
00;08;39;14 - 00;08;43;23
He really believed that you need to get
the employees hopped up
00;08;43;23 - 00;08;47;10
on the on the mission and the world
changing aspects of the company.
00;08;47;19 - 00;08;49;14
And that's
what I think is like almost the most,
00;08;50;27 - 00;08;54;09
bittersweet or have somber note for me
is that when I was looking back at
00;08;54;09 - 00;08;58;05
everything he said in the sort of like
2000 period, 11 period was that, you know,
00;08;59;01 - 00;09;02;09
Google could cure death
because we were so ambitious in our scope.
00;09;02;09 - 00;09;04;25
We have all these talented people,
we have all these resources.
00;09;04;25 - 00;09;07;25
We're faster
than the bureaucracy of the state.
00;09;07;25 - 00;09;11;17
You know, we're not encumbered by, you
know, the complexity, which isn't true.
00;09;11;17 - 00;09;14;24
I mean, the company was pretty complex
already, but, you know, we can,
00;09;15;13 - 00;09;18;17
dramatically solve humanity's problems.
00;09;18;17 - 00;09;21;17
And when you really look at it, I'm like,
00;09;21;17 - 00;09;23;25
you know, it's not to say that
Google hasn't, you know, transformed
00;09;23;25 - 00;09;24;25
the world in certain ways.
00;09;24;25 - 00;09;29;00
But if you look at,
you know, search and YouTube
00;09;29;00 - 00;09;32;21
and all these other, these other things,
it's like in a way, I think that,
00;09;33;26 - 00;09;36;26
you know, tech has sort of,
00;09;37;25 - 00;09;42;10
really contributed to the challenging,
polarized, unequal environment.
00;09;42;10 - 00;09;42;29
You know, that we now
00;09;42;29 - 00;09;46;01
look at society and think like, are things
any better than ten years ago?
00;09;46;01 - 00;09;47;11
Feels it certainly feels worse.
00;09;47;11 - 00;09;49;06
And a lot,
a lot of ways for a lot of people.
00;09;49;06 - 00;09;52;13
While, you know, extreme
wealth has gotten, you know, concentrated
00;09;52;13 - 00;09;53;16
sort of at the top of the company.
00;09;53;16 - 00;09;57;12
So anyway, but in those early years,
it was sort of like,
00;09;57;12 - 00;09;59;05
there's nothing we can't solve together.
00;09;59;05 - 00;10;01;29
And, you know, at the bedrock of
that is people and also that I think
00;10;01;29 - 00;10;05;00
that you see the shift in that language
now today and the values because,
00;10;05;09 - 00;10;09;13
you know, waves of layoffs, the threat of,
you know, AI replacing jobs.
00;10;09;19 - 00;10;13;18
No one is saying from Google anymore
that people are the heart of what we do.
00;10;13;18 - 00;10;15;23
If anything, it's sort of like,
prove that you're better than I.
00;10;15;23 - 00;10;16;28
You know, it's
just like all these companies,
00;10;18;03 - 00;10;18;26
you know, constantly
00;10;18;26 - 00;10;22;02
threatening redundancy,
to their, to their coders.
00;10;22;02 - 00;10;26;02
Now, things have really changed,
but I think that the at the time,
00;10;26;17 - 00;10;29;08
the kind of
I don't think it was insincere.
00;10;29;08 - 00;10;32;08
I think that Larry and Sergey really did
feel that,
00;10;32;17 - 00;10;35;29
Google can have this, like, you know,
transformative impact on society,
00;10;35;29 - 00;10;39;06
not just to, like, create online ads, but,
you know, that it's it's
00;10;39;06 - 00;10;42;06
this much more sweeping, contribution
to the world,
00;10;42;25 - 00;10;46;10
that, you know, I don't know if people
can assess whether that's been borne out.
00;10;46;10 - 00;10;49;10
And I would say it has its.
00;10;50;07 - 00;10;51;23
If you don't work in enterprise
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So. So I'm really curious
and I find it so interesting.
00;11;30;21 - 00;11;34;24
You talk to us a little bit about,
I guess, what happened to Claire
00;11;34;24 - 00;11;37;25
in that time
and what happened to America in that time.
00;11;38;07 - 00;11;41;29
I'm still trying to sort out in my mind,
like what happened to Google.
00;11;41;29 - 00;11;46;26
You know, there's this that there's
this age of almost like, mythologizing
00;11;46;26 - 00;11;50;26
and this mission that, as you said it,
it seems like it was sincere coming from
00;11;51;03 - 00;11;52;09
Larry and Sergei.
00;11;52;09 - 00;11;53;27
Is it that they stepped back?
00;11;53;27 - 00;11;55;16
Is it the company got too big,
00;11;55;16 - 00;12;00;05
like what happened to Google
that's led to this slide.
00;12;00;05 - 00;12;02;20
Do you have any like reflections on that.
00;12;02;20 - 00;12;05;27
Well I do because you know what
Larry Page, this very brief
00;12;05;27 - 00;12;09;02
period of time where he was the CEO,
he gave a few interviews.
00;12;09;02 - 00;12;10;20
He's has like vocal paralysis.
00;12;10;20 - 00;12;11;13
So it's sort of like
00;12;11;13 - 00;12;15;09
he never really spoke in public
the same way after this, like one year.
00;12;15;18 - 00;12;20;26
But he talked about how he was studying,
why companies fail or as a counterpoint,
00;12;20;26 - 00;12;24;12
why companies become so
big and bloated and sclerotic
00;12;24;12 - 00;12;26;05
that they stopped
innovating on the same level.
00;12;26;05 - 00;12;27;27
And that's like such a kiss of death.
00;12;27;27 - 00;12;30;11
And, you know, I think that
00;12;30;11 - 00;12;35;01
he understood the risk of becoming,
you know, super corporate.
00;12;35;01 - 00;12;37;20
And ultimately it seems like
that's completely played out.
00;12;37;20 - 00;12;41;14
I think that, you know, my vantage point
being in the communications department
00;12;41;14 - 00;12;41;27
was that
00;12;43;07 - 00;12;45;28
the company went from this period of rapid
growth
00;12;45;28 - 00;12;49;09
and just, you know, making tons of money
and doing all these different things.
00;12;49;09 - 00;12;51;21
And it was, you know, so cool
and so exciting.
00;12;51;21 - 00;12;55;06
But then, you know, contrary
to their own kind of,
00;12;56;09 - 00;12;59;08
you know, values on paper about HR,
they ended up
00;12;59;26 - 00;13;03;16
hiring a ton of executives
or elevating people to kind of, you know,
00;13;03;16 - 00;13;07;10
manage these different sort of business
units, these different little fiefdoms.
00;13;08;16 - 00;13;12;29
I think that this, this age of executives
became a really complicated,
00;13;13;18 - 00;13;17;16
situation for the company because it,
it corporatized it in a, in a big way
00;13;17;16 - 00;13;18;06
because all of a sudden
00;13;18;06 - 00;13;20;11
you have people coming from the outside
that are kind of,
00;13;20;11 - 00;13;23;14
you know, there's people from Microsoft
or, you know, people who are kind
00;13;23;14 - 00;13;27;13
of used to competently running, you know,
really big teams, really big orgs
00;13;27;21 - 00;13;31;07
who might not, you know, believe in that
same sort of like freewheeling spirit,
00;13;31;07 - 00;13;33;26
but they have a different skill set
or something like that.
00;13;33;26 - 00;13;36;18
The communications became more formal.
00;13;36;18 - 00;13;38;18
The amount of trust
that you can have in the company,
00;13;38;18 - 00;13;43;18
the transparency isn't the same because people stake feels, you know, more tenuous.
00;13;45;13 - 00;13;45;23
Yeah.
00;13;45;23 - 00;13;48;23
I think that, you know, the company,
00;13;49;08 - 00;13;52;08
has been plagued by sort of,
00;13;53;00 - 00;13;54;21
lack of sort of central organization.
00;13;54;21 - 00;13;56;21
So there's I have an example in the book
00;13;56;21 - 00;13;59;28
that there were like five different teams
working on smartwatches at the same time.
00;13;59;28 - 00;14;03;05
Like, that's not only kind of
demoralizing, but it's inefficient.
00;14;03;05 - 00;14;06;04
And they've had, you know, many waves of,
00;14;06;04 - 00;14;07;12
Ruth Porat, who's the CFO.
00;14;07;12 - 00;14;09;15
When they brought her
in, they called her Ruthless Ruth
00;14;09;15 - 00;14;12;14
because she was trying to look
and see where all the bloat and the
00;14;12;17 - 00;14;13;27
and the waste was coming from.
00;14;13;27 - 00;14;17;26
So I could see that
as, Google moved into kind of first,
00;14;17;26 - 00;14;20;13
this age of executives,
then this age of branding,
00;14;20;13 - 00;14;22;23
where they just put
tons of money into marketing,
00;14;22;23 - 00;14;25;23
and now it was billion dollar budgets
for the marketing department.
00;14;25;29 - 00;14;30;03
And then on a much kind of smaller scale
note, in my last few years at YouTube,
00;14;31;08 - 00;14;32;11
I saw this.
00;14;32;11 - 00;14;34;25
My dad was a small business owner,
00;14;34;25 - 00;14;37;25
in Emeryville, California, in the Bay area
where I grew up.
00;14;38;00 - 00;14;41;11
And I would tell him
sometimes anecdotes about my manager,
00;14;41;11 - 00;14;43;11
who's someone who's been very successful
at Google.
00;14;43;11 - 00;14;45;06
You know, she's she's like,
00;14;45;06 - 00;14;47;27
you know, mid-level executive
in the marketing department for department
00;14;47;27 - 00;14;48;23
still there.
00;14;48;23 - 00;14;51;24
And I remember we were talking
about doing an event to promote
00;14;51;24 - 00;14;54;24
some, you know, YouTube show
we were working on. And,
00;14;55;10 - 00;14;56;13
you know, I,
00;14;56;13 - 00;14;59;02
I think I was trying to do some cost
saving or even saying,
00;14;59;02 - 00;15;00;21
I don't know
if we even need to do an event
00;15;00;21 - 00;15;02;11
if we're going to see the ROI from that.
00;15;02;11 - 00;15;05;26
And she was basically encouraging me
to continue on with this event.
00;15;05;26 - 00;15;08;20
And to spend the maximum,
you know, was allotted for it.
00;15;08;20 - 00;15;11;02
And she said, you know,
and I'll never forget it.
00;15;11;02 - 00;15;13;19
You don't get a gold star
for coming in under budget.
00;15;13;19 - 00;15;17;23
And the logic there was,
if you don't spend, then you can't ask
00;15;17;23 - 00;15;20;23
for, you know, you ask for bigger budgets,
you know, year in, year out.
00;15;20;23 - 00;15;22;22
And so what you have
with someone like that,
00;15;22;22 - 00;15;23;28
and I think it's
there's tons of people like
00;15;23;28 - 00;15;26;21
this is people who are really savvy
corporate game players.
00;15;26;21 - 00;15;30;06
And their priority
isn't the mission of the company and the,
00;15;30;07 - 00;15;33;06
you know, the end user and all these other
kind of idealistic things
00;15;33;06 - 00;15;35;14
that we kind of, you know,
we're always talking about obsessively.
00;15;35;14 - 00;15;39;15
In the early days,
her interest is, growing
00;15;39;15 - 00;15;43;22
her, influence in the or
growing her budget, growing her headcount.
00;15;44;27 - 00;15;45;17
She probably is,
00;15;45;17 - 00;15;48;17
you know, self-interested
monetarily out there, you know, get it?
00;15;48;19 - 00;15;53;03
And I think, you know, with, with culture
shift culture, organizational culture.
00;15;53;04 - 00;15;56;07
So organizational organizational
psychology is so complicated.
00;15;56;17 - 00;16;00;06
But I could see that very unfortunately,
Google has sort of lost its grip
00;16;00;15 - 00;16;03;19
on, you know, people
who are deeply invested
00;16;03;19 - 00;16;07;08
and in the company's success and instead
more invested in their success.
00;16;07;08 - 00;16;10;20
I'm sure, as Larry Page would say,
this is an inevitability
00;16;10;20 - 00;16;14;04
that you have to fight aggressively
as companies become so, so big.
00;16;14;29 - 00;16;19;19
And also the, you know, the mission of
the company is so big and so complicated.
00;16;19;19 - 00;16;22;04
And I, you know, when I would
when I joined the YouTube marketing team
00;16;22;04 - 00;16;25;16
and I would tell my husband, who's
an architect, about my job, it was like
00;16;26;18 - 00;16;27;28
there had also
00;16;27;28 - 00;16;29;16
Google had also undergone
00;16;29;16 - 00;16;32;15
kind of related to what I'm talking about,
the old manager, this bullshit jobs
00;16;32;15 - 00;16;34;19
ification
where I would describe what I'm doing.
00;16;34;19 - 00;16;38;00
Okay, you know, I run a team
that manages the social media presence
00;16;38;00 - 00;16;42;04
for YouTube and, you know, it's
not really tied to any particular goal.
00;16;42;04 - 00;16;44;21
It's like we're just supposed
to kind of drive positive sentiment.
00;16;44;21 - 00;16;45;23
And so he's been like an architect.
00;16;45;23 - 00;16;48;13
You know, you're building houses sort of
like brick by brick is very tangible.
00;16;48;13 - 00;16;48;27
And you'd be like,
00;16;48;27 - 00;16;53;02
I just don't really kind of understand
how this connects to like YouTube's
00;16;53;02 - 00;16;56;02
bottom line or any particular goal,
because our goals are kind of
00;16;56;05 - 00;16;56;28
just sort of like,
00;16;56;28 - 00;16;57;25
you know, we're going with the
00;16;57;25 - 00;17;00;27
with the wind and there's, you know,
a lot of discussion in the book about,
00;17;01;02 - 00;17;04;24
you know, how the social media channels
change with the political climate.
00;17;04;24 - 00;17;06;28
And, you know, we're now we're doing
liberal values now.
00;17;06;28 - 00;17;10;20
We're not, you know, this sort of thing
and, you know, but yet, like, you know,
00;17;10;20 - 00;17;13;05
he would say that I'd be like, it's
so true. Like, what even is this job?
00;17;13;05 - 00;17;15;16
And yet the, the budgets and the head
counts.
00;17;15;16 - 00;17;16;27
It's just got bigger and bigger
and bigger.
00;17;16;27 - 00;17;19;15
We had, you know, multiple agencies,
tons of people.
00;17;19;15 - 00;17;22;23
I mean, my boss, you know, had probably
had 30 people on her team by the end.
00;17;22;25 - 00;17;26;02
This is she was the person
overseeing the social media presence.
00;17;26;02 - 00;17;26;23
So you think,
00;17;26;23 - 00;17;28;27
all right,
I've seen maybe one times in YouTube's
00;17;28;27 - 00;17;31;05
Twitter account
or Instagram account or something.
00;17;31;05 - 00;17;31;22
Think about that.
00;17;31;22 - 00;17;35;22
30 people and then maybe 100 other people
at agencies who are working on it.
00;17;36;01 - 00;17;38;05
It's just tremendously wasteful.
00;17;38;05 - 00;17;41;21
It's, you know, it's really hard
from the outside
00;17;41;21 - 00;17;45;08
perspective to understand how the company
could justify that kind of money.
00;17;45;08 - 00;17;47;01
And, you know, it's like a jobs program.
00;17;47;01 - 00;17;48;00
It's like a jobs.
00;17;48;00 - 00;17;52;16
It's like, you know, it's like some sort
of like a big socialist product project.
00;17;52;16 - 00;17;56;01
But it's, you know, within the under
the guise of big corporate,
00;17;57;07 - 00;17;58;13
big corporate companies.
00;17;58;13 - 00;17;59;08
So anyway, that's.
00;17;59;08 - 00;18;00;22
Yeah, I think there's a lot of reasons
00;18;00;22 - 00;18;04;16
why the culture has shifted
in ways that make it like a bit, you know,
00;18;04;16 - 00;18;07;16
less desirable in every way
that it's been so quick.
00;18;08;12 - 00;18;08;25
Yeah.
00;18;08;25 - 00;18;11;25
And yeah,
the reason I ask is because it seems like
00;18;13;09 - 00;18;16;17
it's so obviously underwent
like a metamorphosis,
00;18;16;17 - 00;18;18;21
and it feels like it's
not unique to Google either. Right?
00;18;18;21 - 00;18;22;09
That there's all these stories of
you have companies that get too big
00;18;22;09 - 00;18;24;10
and suddenly they have money
and they don't know what to do with it,
00;18;24;10 - 00;18;27;12
and they do weird stuff
and they get corporatized.
00;18;27;12 - 00;18;30;21
And you have, you know,
it starts as being very people focused.
00;18;30;21 - 00;18;31;20
And you have, you know,
00;18;31;20 - 00;18;36;08
someone like Larry who's making
sure that it reflects their values.
00;18;36;08 - 00;18;39;23
And then, you know, as as they
step back a little bit, you lose that.
00;18;40;02 - 00;18;41;03
That North Star is.
00;18;41;03 - 00;18;42;05
So yeah, it's interesting.
00;18;42;05 - 00;18;44;21
And I want to talk more about that
through our conversation.
00;18;44;21 - 00;18;47;06
But I guess
just kind of playing the tape forward,
00;18;47;06 - 00;18;50;01
you know,
we end up a handful of years later
00;18;50;01 - 00;18;53;04
with the walkouts
and the events leading up to the walkouts.
00;18;53;14 - 00;18;57;01
And for, you know, listeners
who don't know, that involves some,
00;18;57;06 - 00;19;00;16
you know, fairly egregious,
sexual harassment payouts. But,
00;19;01;16 - 00;19;03;02
maybe,
Claire, you can tell us a little bit
00;19;03;02 - 00;19;06;12
about that, the lead up to it
and the walkouts themselves.
00;19;06;12 - 00;19;10;22
And like how,
I guess how you got involved with that.
00;19;11;15 - 00;19;11;25
Right?
00;19;11;25 - 00;19;12;23
I know it was,
00;19;12;23 - 00;19;15;28
you know, to have considered myself
kind of the ultimate corporate good girl
00;19;15;28 - 00;19;17;04
and then to be,
00;19;17;04 - 00;19;21;00
you know, leading the charge on this sort
of revolt was definitely a shocking turn.
00;19;21;00 - 00;19;22;17
Even,
00;19;22;17 - 00;19;25;04
even though I lived it, I'm like,
how did I end up doing that?
00;19;25;04 - 00;19;29;02
The you know, I think that the again, the,
00;19;29;15 - 00;19;32;29
the kind of cultural context driving,
you know, drives
00;19;32;29 - 00;19;36;22
so many, you know, forces and,
you know, rupture moments.
00;19;36;22 - 00;19;37;00
Right?
00;19;37;00 - 00;19;40;00
So you know, Trump had
00;19;40;09 - 00;19;43;01
come into power in 2016.
00;19;43;01 - 00;19;47;03
And so there were a lot of conversation,
you know, the MeToo movement, it was 2018,
00;19;48;00 - 00;19;48;21
began.
00;19;48;21 - 00;19;53;24
And, you know, there was a lot of,
you know, women feeling that
00;19;53;24 - 00;19;58;18
there was space available to talk about,
you know, kind of some of the, you know,
00;19;59;04 - 00;20;03;04
systemic cultural aspects of the way,
you know, the workplaces we've been in,
00;20;04;17 - 00;20;06;21
and just the the patriarchy in general.
00;20;06;21 - 00;20;08;15
Right. So,
00;20;08;15 - 00;20;12;28
I, I had had a baby, which was,
which was just personally
00;20;12;28 - 00;20;15;28
a very radical experience
as it, as it, as it can be.
00;20;17;00 - 00;20;19;26
And while I was on maternity leave,
00;20;19;26 - 00;20;23;02
there was this sort of all
this sort of MeToo stuff
00;20;23;02 - 00;20;27;07
kind of came home to roost at Google
because there was a, an engineer
00;20;27;07 - 00;20;30;08
named James Damore who sent around a memo.
00;20;30;08 - 00;20;32;07
There was a
there's a lots of mailing lists
00;20;32;07 - 00;20;35;07
and people, you know, kind of constantly
arguing things at Google.
00;20;35;15 - 00;20;37;16
It was a big part of the culture.
I don't think is.
00;20;37;16 - 00;20;40;19
But he there was a mailing list
00;20;40;19 - 00;20;43;19
that was for controversial takes,
and he wrote a big memo,
00;20;45;04 - 00;20;47;08
basically about how
00;20;47;08 - 00;20;52;03
women are biologically less suited
to engineering than men.
00;20;52;03 - 00;20;54;22
And it's actually been a huge disaster.
00;20;54;22 - 00;20;58;15
The Dei, you know, efforts
that Google had done to try to,
00;20;59;07 - 00;21;04;08
bring more women onto engineering teams
was counterproductive and a huge disaster.
00;21;04;08 - 00;21;06;00
You know, all these other things.
00;21;06;00 - 00;21;09;09
So I was sort of just like watching this
with fascination because in unearthed
00;21;09;09 - 00;21;14;09
this conversation about the
the lingering bro culture in the Valley,
00;21;14;17 - 00;21;17;11
which I think that
in some ways was was sort of
00;21;18;11 - 00;21;19;05
hard to see.
00;21;19;05 - 00;21;22;15
It's not like being in Wall Street
where someone's like slapping your butt
00;21;22;15 - 00;21;23;29
or something, you know, like in the 80s.
00;21;23;29 - 00;21;25;28
I think that,
00;21;25;28 - 00;21;28;27
you know, I think that, you know, the,
00;21;29;01 - 00;21;32;24
the kind of hacker, bro culture
of the Valley has always been there.
00;21;32;24 - 00;21;35;12
And there was a good, Emily
Chang book called bro.
00;21;35;12 - 00;21;38;20
Topia, which talks a little bit
about the sort of like startup culture,
00;21;39;10 - 00;21;41;29
and sexist, a kind of basic sexism,
I guess.
00;21;41;29 - 00;21;45;22
But, you know, it ended up
being this sort of interesting moment
00;21;45;22 - 00;21;49;22
where I think, women were starting to,
to chew on,
00;21;51;03 - 00;21;54;08
feeling that sort of sense
of discrimination or sense of like, I'm
00;21;54;08 - 00;21;58;07
a guy, hire all this and, you know,
and it was really interesting.
00;21;58;07 - 00;22;03;11
So then, you know, then, Brett Kavanaugh
was, confirmed to the Supreme Court
00;22;03;22 - 00;22;06;26
that fall that I was coming back
from maternity leave and,
00;22;07;24 - 00;22;11;08
was also another really interesting moment
of just talking about patriarchy
00;22;11;08 - 00;22;14;16
and sort of, you know, just
it was just a really interesting, meaty
00;22;14;16 - 00;22;15;11
cultural conversation.
00;22;15;11 - 00;22;19;28
So, the women at Google,
I think, were engaged in a way,
00;22;20;10 - 00;22;22;00
that, you know,
because usually as a Googler,
00;22;22;00 - 00;22;23;23
you're like, I'm
so grateful and happy to be here.
00;22;23;23 - 00;22;26;10
I'm like, you know, making good money
and what a wonderful company.
00;22;26;10 - 00;22;29;07
And you know, they support, you know,
the whole person and all that. Right.
00;22;30;14 - 00;22;32;24
So it's really hard because
I think there's a lot of sense of like,
00;22;32;24 - 00;22;34;19
you know, who are you to, you know,
00;22;34;19 - 00;22;37;20
people are getting like raped around,
you know, like there's so much like either
00;22;37;22 - 00;22;41;17
there's the women face
or and people of color face, you know,
00;22;42;01 - 00;22;45;13
so much there's so many difficult,
you know, experiences around the world.
00;22;45;13 - 00;22;46;06
We're so privileged.
00;22;46;06 - 00;22;48;14
How can we possibly complain
as sort of you know, a little bit
00;22;48;14 - 00;22;50;14
the attitude of of women at Google,
I think.
00;22;50;14 - 00;22;54;02
But all this is to say,
there was a big New York Times, exposé
00;22;54;19 - 00;22;58;27
of, a man named Andy Rubin who we all knew
well was like a really big,
00;22;58;27 - 00;22;59;18
you know, basically
00;22;59;18 - 00;23;02;20
like second only to Larry and Sergey
as a kind of celebrity of the company.
00;23;03;11 - 00;23;07;11
And he had, been investigated for,
00;23;07;29 - 00;23;10;18
improper relations
with subordinates on the team.
00;23;10;18 - 00;23;13;18
I guess you could say there's sort
of, like, some very salacious details,
00;23;14;14 - 00;23;15;12
and inappropriate.
00;23;15;12 - 00;23;15;20
It was.
00;23;15;20 - 00;23;19;02
It was largely like, very,
inappropriate behavior.
00;23;19;10 - 00;23;22;11
For someone running a team
and running a huge org.
00;23;22;11 - 00;23;25;13
And Google had investigated these, claims
00;23;25;13 - 00;23;29;17
and basically decided
to get him out of the company.
00;23;30;11 - 00;23;32;00
But he got a $90 million payout.
00;23;32;00 - 00;23;35;00
So, of course, this is
probably was like he created androids.
00;23;35;00 - 00;23;38;10
It it's probably like contractual,
you know, like they get paying him
00;23;38;10 - 00;23;41;24
some percentage of what Android was worth,
you know, and you know, all this.
00;23;41;24 - 00;23;45;11
But there there were a few other examples
in this New York Times story,
00;23;45;17 - 00;23;48;17
including of David Drummond, who was the,
00;23;48;23 - 00;23;52;14
chief legal officer having,
actually having a baby
00;23;52;15 - 00;23;55;16
with with someone who was like an admin
on his administrative team.
00;23;56;06 - 00;23;59;00
And she was sort of shuttled
out of the company with nothing,
00;23;59;00 - 00;24;02;10
and, you know, anyway,
so it created the perfect,
00;24;02;10 - 00;24;06;08
you know, image in a already charged
time for women at the company.
00;24;07;16 - 00;24;08;25
That look at the
00;24;08;25 - 00;24;12;02
optics here that, you know, a man abuses
his power,
00;24;12;17 - 00;24;16;14
gets a hero's farewell, gets, you know,
Andy Rubin is getting paid like, you know,
00;24;16;25 - 00;24;19;16
$2 million a month
for for many years or whatever.
00;24;19;16 - 00;24;20;20
Some crazy thing.
00;24;20;20 - 00;24;23;25
And, you know, and meanwhile,
these women who are kind
00;24;23;25 - 00;24;26;25
of, like,
discarded by this side of the road,
00;24;27;04 - 00;24;30;04
who are, you know, the victims of these
sort of like, men in power.
00;24;30;29 - 00;24;34;29
And, you know, it's just it just
I think it kind of it summed up it was it
00;24;34;29 - 00;24;38;25
was it was like the, you know, the match
that let the powder keg sort of moment.
00;24;38;25 - 00;24;43;07
So I was just coming back from maternity
leave had been following had been,
00;24;43;09 - 00;24;44;17
you know, I love a listserv.
00;24;44;17 - 00;24;47;10
So I was, you know, big on the moms group,
you know, it's an anonymous group.
00;24;47;10 - 00;24;51;07
But I was just really interested,
to see people's reactions to this.
00;24;51;07 - 00;24;53;09
And, you know,
I think people were kind of chiming in
00;24;53;09 - 00;24;54;13
with their sort of like, MeToo
00;24;54;13 - 00;24;57;29
stories, and people started to talk about,
you know, what we might do.
00;24;58;14 - 00;25;02;10
You know, send a letter to the CEO,
maybe we should all get together
00;25;02;10 - 00;25;05;17
and go to the TGIF and,
you know, show a united front about,
00;25;06;15 - 00;25;07;23
you know, how angry we are.
00;25;07;23 - 00;25;11;03
And I think because I've been so deep
in the bones of the communications,
00;25;11;03 - 00;25;14;24
the internal communications,
and knew how, insufficient
00;25;14;24 - 00;25;19;18
they were for accountability
at that point in the companies, lifespan,
00;25;20;20 - 00;25;23;12
as well as just like the moment, you know,
it's like it just felt like
00;25;23;12 - 00;25;27;02
we should do something a bit,
something bigger to log and register.
00;25;27;19 - 00;25;30;06
Our discontent,
you know, maybe something public facing.
00;25;30;06 - 00;25;31;25
We're gonna walk out.
00;25;31;25 - 00;25;35;21
And so I, you know, I think that I
it was like I had just hit this point
00;25;35;21 - 00;25;39;20
of being sort of like, personally
and professionally frustrated
00;25;39;20 - 00;25;44;09
and kind of fed up
with aspects of my, management and the way
00;25;44;09 - 00;25;46;16
I'd been treated after maternity leave
and all these other things.
00;25;46;16 - 00;25;49;07
And I just thought, you know,
I have good name recognition
00;25;49;07 - 00;25;51;29
within the company
from my days in communications.
00;25;51;29 - 00;25;55;04
I'm happy I, I'm never going to get fired
or dinged for this.
00;25;55;04 - 00;25;58;26
And I think that the, you know, it's
it's it's, it's it's about time that,
00;25;58;26 - 00;25;59;19
you know, we
00;26;00;23 - 00;26;03;16
that we,
you know, make a statement to management
00;26;03;16 - 00;26;06;16
about how this isn't okay,
these systemic issues are not okay. So,
00;26;06;29 - 00;26;09;15
I just sort of said I can help
put my name on it.
00;26;09;15 - 00;26;10;23
And planet,
00;26;10;23 - 00;26;14;09
some wonderful people came to the fold
and we had this, you know, whole group
00;26;14;09 - 00;26;15;12
that was working on it
00;26;15;12 - 00;26;17;08
and it and we thought
we even got a couple hundred
00;26;17;08 - 00;26;19;20
people maybe in Mountain View,
maybe in New York.
00;26;19;20 - 00;26;22;20
But one really kind of sobering
aspect of it was that
00;26;23;09 - 00;26;24;27
it seemed to take off so quickly.
00;26;24;27 - 00;26;26;08
We planned it within a week.
00;26;26;08 - 00;26;28;15
Then the protest happened.
00;26;28;15 - 00;26;31;03
And I was like,
what is what is happening here?
00;26;31;03 - 00;26;33;22
Because I know, you know,
some women are frustrated and,
00;26;33;22 - 00;26;37;22
you know, there's there's women who've,
you know, experienced really bad things
00;26;38;00 - 00;26;40;22
worse than what I'm talking about, with,
you know, my own
00;26;40;22 - 00;26;44;21
feeling of like, opportunity
discrimination or whatever, and I
00;26;44;21 - 00;26;48;19
so I, I sent out a, a Google form saying,
why are you walking out?
00;26;48;19 - 00;26;52;03
You know, what is why are you compelled
to, you know, kind of step out of line?
00;26;52;03 - 00;26;54;13
You know, we're all kind of like
good girls, you know, like high achievers.
00;26;54;13 - 00;26;55;16
You're our Google.
00;26;55;16 - 00;27;00;12
And I got the 350 stories
back, or 350 responses back.
00;27;00;12 - 00;27;04;21
And a lot of them were these
egregious stories of just like, you know,
00;27;04;26 - 00;27;08;01
I had just I just said that, you know,
like, oh, we think we're so privileged.
00;27;08;01 - 00;27;10;04
You know,
no one's like slapping our but like,
00;27;10;04 - 00;27;12;02
they would on Wall Street or something.
There's tons of that.
00;27;12;02 - 00;27;15;15
There's tons of, you know, inappropriate
remarks, just, you know,
00;27;15;25 - 00;27;19;09
casual sexism did horrible experiences.
00;27;19;09 - 00;27;19;24
People had,
00;27;19;24 - 00;27;23;19
you know, coming back from maternity
leave, having their products given away.
00;27;24;18 - 00;27;26;00
You know,
00;27;26;00 - 00;27;28;21
these things that you'd think
there would be not just,
00;27;28;21 - 00;27;31;01
you know, the basic labor protections
that you didn't get.
00;27;31;01 - 00;27;32;19
Treat this way, treated this way at work
00;27;32;19 - 00;27;35;19
just because of your gender
or the color of your skin.
00;27;35;24 - 00;27;39;23
But especially at Google, which,
you know, foisted by its own petard here
00;27;40;00 - 00;27;43;18
always said it was like the kind of
progressive workplace of the future that,
00;27;44;19 - 00;27;48;28
you know, we treat people,
you know, kind of better than, you know,
00;27;48;29 - 00;27;52;23
we workers are the center of, you know,
and the lifeblood of this place.
00;27;52;23 - 00;27;53;20
And and we wouldn't want,
00;27;53;20 - 00;27;57;01
you know, all these sort of like HR checks
and balances to kind of, you know,
00;27;57;16 - 00;28;00;05
theoretically prevent people
from feeling like
00;28;00;05 - 00;28;04;05
things are completely, you know, unfair,
sexist, racist and all this.
00;28;04;05 - 00;28;07;05
And so I was really shocked
that, like, under the cover of darkness,
00;28;07;20 - 00;28;09;17
there was still so much of this going on.
00;28;09;17 - 00;28;12;10
Google's response
was also kind of interesting and telling
00;28;12;10 - 00;28;15;04
where, you know, the head of HR was like,
yeah, it's inevitable.
00;28;15;04 - 00;28;16;28
You know,
you have a company of 90,000 people.
00;28;16;28 - 00;28;18;28
There's going
to be like sexual harassment.
00;28;20;02 - 00;28;20;28
It just didn't meet the
00;28;20;28 - 00;28;23;28
moment, you know,
and it kind of like continued to
00;28;25;11 - 00;28;27;19
it kind of that what was, you know,
00;28;27;19 - 00;28;31;14
this kind of pure expression
of just anger and rage in that moment
00;28;32;01 - 00;28;35;23
became quickly
a kind of operation to kind of continue
00;28;35;23 - 00;28;37;24
to push the company
to make changes in these ways.
00;28;37;24 - 00;28;40;13
We had demands. We kind of,
you know, following up on them.
00;28;40;13 - 00;28;43;15
And Google was like,
okay, you blow off steam, we're good.
00;28;43;15 - 00;28;45;00
Let's move on here.
00;28;45;00 - 00;28;47;17
We got it. Don't call us. We'll call you.
00;28;47;17 - 00;28;48;19
And yeah.
00;28;48;19 - 00;28;51;16
So yeah, they they ended up, yeah.
00;28;51;16 - 00;28;55;05
Not not loving the ongoing
organizing at the time.
00;28;55;15 - 00;28;56;09
Yeah.
00;28;56;09 - 00;28;57;17
And they clamped down on it really hard.
00;28;57;17 - 00;28;59;20
So that's. Yeah.
00;28;59;20 - 00;29;01;26
Well,
well tell me about the clampdown because,
00;29;01;26 - 00;29;04;26
you know, from,
from my very distant point of view,
00;29;05;12 - 00;29;08;18
what I saw was like the,
the sort of tacit leadership like,
00;29;08;18 - 00;29;11;25
oh, yes, we support you,
but please go away or something like that.
00;29;11;25 - 00;29;15;22
Like it was like it was
it seemed like it was like head nodding,
00;29;15;22 - 00;29;19;24
but yeah, like whatever
the opposite of commitment to action
00;29;19;24 - 00;29;23;24
is like like basically, yes, we hear you,
but we're not willing to make any sort of
00;29;23;24 - 00;29;25;06
system level changes. So.
00;29;25;06 - 00;29;27;11
So tell me about the clampdown
and tell me what you know,
00;29;27;11 - 00;29;29;07
what happened next from your perspective?
00;29;29;07 - 00;29;32;26
Well, I just to first mention that the,
you know, the company
00;29;32;26 - 00;29;36;09
initially took, if you can't beat them,
join, sort of, attitude.
00;29;36;09 - 00;29;40;03
So when the walkout was getting planned,
they, the CEO of the company
00;29;40;03 - 00;29;41;19
sent out an email saying,
00;29;41;19 - 00;29;45;06
I understand this is happening and,
you know, you're welcome to walk out.
00;29;45;06 - 00;29;46;02
It was just so weird.
00;29;46;02 - 00;29;48;17
But it was good
publicity for the event, I guess.
00;29;49;28 - 00;29;53;15
And then the CFO of the company
was at a Wall Street
00;29;53;15 - 00;29;56;23
Journal conference that week,
and she was like, I walked out myself.
00;29;56;23 - 00;30;00;03
And, you know, this is, you know, here
we have Googlers doing what Googlers do.
00;30;00;03 - 00;30;02;20
Well, you know, we're going to solve
all these problems together.
00;30;02;20 - 00;30;04;11
And like sexual harassment, yet
another problem
00;30;04;11 - 00;30;07;11
that Google can solve, you know,
which is crazy.
00;30;08;03 - 00;30;10;11
But so it was sort of like hunky dory.
00;30;10;11 - 00;30;14;10
And as an organizer, I was invited to go
do a meeting with the female
00;30;14;16 - 00;30;18;08
top female executives
like Susan Wojcicki and Ruth CFO and,
00;30;19;29 - 00;30;21;22
you know,
00;30;21;22 - 00;30;24;09
but the cozy, the coziness was,
00;30;24;09 - 00;30;27;09
you know, dissipated almost immediately.
00;30;27;20 - 00;30;30;25
They did a, you know, an all hands
where they said, here's our, you know,
00;30;30;25 - 00;30;33;02
kind of like internal site
where we're going to, like,
00;30;33;02 - 00;30;35;12
make progress on these demands,
but they never commit, you know,
00;30;35;12 - 00;30;39;10
other than they got rid of forced
arbitration, which was a big deal.
00;30;40;11 - 00;30;43;11
They, they didn't really
do any of the things, but some of them,
00;30;43;11 - 00;30;44;24
some of the things we were demanding
00;30;44;24 - 00;30;47;24
were quite like existential in nature,
like commit to like,
00;30;48;23 - 00;30;50;23
correcting pay and equity
and things like this.
00;30;50;23 - 00;30;53;02
But, you know,
it was a lot of lip service,
00;30;53;02 - 00;30;55;17
I think, though, what really kind of,
00;30;55;17 - 00;30;58;09
amplified the walkout
was that there was a big shareholder
00;30;58;09 - 00;31;01;14
lawsuit which said that the way
that Google had handled,
00;31;01;16 - 00;31;04;08
you know, these high profile cases was,
you know, doing damage to the company.
00;31;04;08 - 00;31;07;08
And so there was a big settlement,
00;31;08;03 - 00;31;08;28
with the women, company.
00;31;08;28 - 00;31;11;28
However, the, the,
00;31;12;12 - 00;31;15;09
the company made very quick work to.
00;31;15;09 - 00;31;15;20
Make.
00;31;15;20 - 00;31;19;24
It my belief, isolate
the women who are working on this stuff,
00;31;21;14 - 00;31;23;17
within their teams.
00;31;23;17 - 00;31;26;26
You know, in my case, you know, I was
I feel very much that I was sort of, like,
00;31;26;26 - 00;31;30;11
pushed off of my team,
but at the same time, they made internal
00;31;30;11 - 00;31;33;11
policy changes, including,
00;31;33;22 - 00;31;37;16
talk about a shift from the, you know,
open, transparent Google culture.
00;31;37;24 - 00;31;40;25
They very quickly
sent around an email saying that,
00;31;41;25 - 00;31;44;24
now there are penalties for,
00;31;44;24 - 00;31;48;26
accessing need to know documents
if you, if you don't have access, if,
00;31;48;28 - 00;31;51;15
you know, aren't supposed to be
looking at these things, which is it
00;31;51;15 - 00;31;53;03
was sort of like ambiguous,
how would you know?
00;31;53;03 - 00;31;54;18
What if the company was like
00;31;54;18 - 00;31;58;13
all, documents were publicly viewable
by default, and all these other things
00;31;58;13 - 00;32;00;15
that were kind of hallmarks
of the culture.
00;32;00;15 - 00;32;04;12
They ended up firing a group of people
after I had already left.
00;32;04;12 - 00;32;07;24
But, someone was just for,
looking on calendars.
00;32;07;24 - 00;32;12;02
This guy had looked on, HR calendars
and spotted that they were
00;32;12;02 - 00;32;15;13
that someone H.R was meeting with
this kind of famous union busting firm.
00;32;15;13 - 00;32;18;13
And, you know,
people were getting Ahold of,
00;32;18;18 - 00;32;21;18
documents
that showed that Google was, basically
00;32;21;23 - 00;32;26;04
trying to run a psychological operation
to, quell the threat of organizing
00;32;26;13 - 00;32;27;13
the threat of unionism.
00;32;28;14 - 00;32;31;06
And. Yeah, so I think that and, you know,
00;32;31;06 - 00;32;36;06
when people get fired for for stuff
that's confusing like that,
00;32;36;11 - 00;32;40;15
which is, you know, what it was very
there was someone who also put a,
00;32;41;20 - 00;32;44;14
like, a pop up on all Linux machines
00;32;44;14 - 00;32;46;06
that said, like,
organizing is a protected right.
00;32;46;06 - 00;32;47;22
You know, these things,
that person got fired.
00;32;47;22 - 00;32;50;20
So, basically,
you know, that's very chilling.
00;32;50;20 - 00;32;52;22
I mean, the chilling effects of that, it's
it's it's,
00;32;52;22 - 00;32;56;02
you know, you go it's a complete
about-face from this is we have Googlers
00;32;56;02 - 00;32;59;02
doing Googlers do well all the way to
00;32;59;06 - 00;32;59;17
yeah.
00;32;59;17 - 00;33;01;26
You you you saw something on a calendar.
00;33;01;26 - 00;33;03;05
We don't like that you're gone. So.
00;33;03;05 - 00;33;04;12
And yeah.
00;33;04;12 - 00;33;07;12
There I think that the and then that
00;33;07;12 - 00;33;10;23
the shot chaser there was that
the tech industry started doing layoffs.
00;33;10;23 - 00;33;15;21
So, you know, the
the walkout came was born of a time
00;33;15;28 - 00;33;20;16
where, workers did feel, ironically
enough, psychologically safe.
00;33;20;16 - 00;33;23;03
Here's me saying,
I've been at this company forever.
00;33;23;03 - 00;33;26;01
They're not gonna they're never gonna
get rid of me for this.
00;33;26;01 - 00;33;30;00
Because, you know, I'm holding
Google to its own data, stated values.
00;33;30;00 - 00;33;33;00
So even if they don't like that
this is a protest, it's sort of bad
00;33;33;00 - 00;33;36;28
PR for it's drawing more attention to this
sort of like corporate malfeasance.
00;33;39;05 - 00;33;40;11
Even so,
00;33;40;11 - 00;33;43;27
they're going to have to live with that
because the culture is durable enough
00;33;43;27 - 00;33;46;10
to absorb these voices and all the,
you know, the
00;33;46;10 - 00;33;49;24
the company's not so insecure
that they would punish people for,
00;33;50;13 - 00;33;53;18
for speaking out against things that
they deserve to be held accountable for.
00;33;54;13 - 00;33;57;05
But how wrong I was,
because I think that, you know,
00;33;57;05 - 00;34;00;22
even though I think that all the pretty
much all the women from the walkout,
00;34;02;10 - 00;34;05;00
left like pretty dramatically and,
you know, in public ways.
00;34;05;00 - 00;34;08;05
And I thought that, you know, if anything,
the optics of that will look so bad
00;34;08;05 - 00;34;12;01
for this company that I know so care
so much about being seen as
00;34;12;16 - 00;34;13;24
inclusive and progressive.
00;34;13;24 - 00;34;15;20
And but anyway, they still did.
00;34;15;20 - 00;34;19;25
And, you know, like when I was kind of
finishing up the book last summer,
00;34;19;25 - 00;34;24;00
I went and saw that the women who were,
you know, the head of my department,
00;34;24;00 - 00;34;27;23
you know, marketing at YouTube
as well, ended up going on
00;34;27;23 - 00;34;29;12
kind of like a road show
and putting out op
00;34;29;12 - 00;34;33;04
eds the year two after I, you know, I left
and all this sort of fracas
00;34;33;05 - 00;34;37;10
at Google about, you know, that
pontificating about how to build diverse
00;34;37;10 - 00;34;40;10
and inclusive teams
that, you know, like how people flourish.
00;34;40;10 - 00;34;43;22
I'm just like, can nobody see this through
this ridiculousness
00;34;43;22 - 00;34;46;25
that they, you know, ended up kind of,
00;34;47;16 - 00;34;51;01
you know, that's not, not, not the biggest
selling point for your inclusive team
00;34;51;01 - 00;34;55;04
that you ended up, pushing out
the people that dared to question,
00;34;56;09 - 00;34;57;26
question leadership.
00;34;57;26 - 00;35;00;29
You know, particularly when we were hired
on the back of that sort of promise.
00;35;00;29 - 00;35;04;08
But, yeah, that was so
that was the kind of like quick shift
00;35;04;08 - 00;35;07;02
that they were able to make.
And the chilling effects remain.
00;35;07;02 - 00;35;10;15
I don't think that organizing exists,
that these tech companies near
00;35;10;15 - 00;35;14;03
on the level of the kind of promise
of that particular moment.
00;35;16;21 - 00;35;17;06
When I hear
00;35;17;06 - 00;35;20;06
you talk about that period of time
and about the walkouts,
00;35;20;06 - 00;35;23;06
it's interesting, Claire, and
and tell me if you disagree, but I,
00;35;23;13 - 00;35;26;07
I, I sense like a sense of reflection
in you.
00;35;26;07 - 00;35;30;17
Like, it seems like you're like,
oh, how how idealistic I was
00;35;30;17 - 00;35;34;04
and and what a time that was that
things like that were happening.
00;35;34;04 - 00;35;38;21
And I'm curious, you know, having had
the chance now to sort of reflect on it,
00;35;39;00 - 00;35;42;10
you know, what you make of it
now, you know, would you do it again?
00;35;42;10 - 00;35;44;04
Would you have done something differently?
00;35;44;04 - 00;35;47;19
Do you see it as,
you know, being a force for good or,
00;35;48;29 - 00;35;51;23
you know,
just more of a product of its time?
00;35;51;23 - 00;35;54;23
Well, you know, I think it,
00;35;55;18 - 00;35;56;22
you know,
00;35;56;22 - 00;35;59;22
my naivete at that time
00;35;59;27 - 00;36;03;26
was something that I like,
feel like is very precious because, like,
00;36;03;26 - 00;36;06;25
even when I went to
when I started experiencing this sort of,
00;36;06;25 - 00;36;07;10
like,
00;36;07;10 - 00;36;10;03
changing in my roles and responsibilities,
and I'm starting to kind of
00;36;10;03 - 00;36;13;04
get isolated from the, you know,
the main work that I've been doing,
00;36;14;19 - 00;36;17;05
I was like, oh, surely if I go to HR,
they'll fix this.
00;36;17;05 - 00;36;21;24
I mean, it's crazy because I already I was
surrounded by people who either were,
00;36;22;17 - 00;36;26;10
more kind of savvy labor organizers
or people who were just never had
00;36;26;10 - 00;36;30;07
the same trust in authority that I did,
or the kind of deference to authority.
00;36;30;07 - 00;36;31;29
And I think that and I like,
00;36;31;29 - 00;36;35;04
you know, it may surprise people
reading the book that I actually spent
00;36;35;04 - 00;36;39;13
a bit of time talking about how,
like the how I was formed
00;36;39;24 - 00;36;42;29
such that going to Google, I got so bought
in, I was kind of interested
00;36;42;29 - 00;36;46;06
to kind of like, lightly psychoanalyze,
like, you know, it's a Catholic school.
00;36;46;06 - 00;36;48;00
I, you know, was a good student.
00;36;48;00 - 00;36;50;14
All these sort of like, basic
things that make someone,
00;36;50;14 - 00;36;53;03
you know, perhaps you could
say the word susceptible to,
00;36;54;06 - 00;36;55;19
to getting kind of drawn in
00;36;55;19 - 00;36;59;03
to the kind of like the corporate, B.S.,
you know, or whatever.
00;37;00;05 - 00;37;03;20
Or get into, get drawn into the story
and not necessarily be able to separate.
00;37;03;20 - 00;37;06;06
Okay. I have here
my values here and my sense of judgment.
00;37;06;06 - 00;37;09;06
I'm just going to trust what versus
I'll just trust what leadership says.
00;37;10;11 - 00;37;15;03
So, yeah, I think that I completely
understand the person that I was.
00;37;15;03 - 00;37;16;09
I was I was like kind of like
00;37;16;09 - 00;37;19;23
starting to have this awakening
and like a new kind of like righteousness.
00;37;19;23 - 00;37;23;14
And it feels to me
very pure, like it was like, you know,
00;37;23;19 - 00;37;26;28
it just was honestly like I was
there was this like, ice moment.
00;37;26;28 - 00;37;29;28
And I was feeling
kind of passionate and hot, you know?
00;37;29;28 - 00;37;32;09
So it's sort of like that
just happened. I think that,
00;37;33;21 - 00;37;34;00
yeah.
00;37;34;00 - 00;37;37;00
Whereas I think that a lot of the other
organizers would be like,
00;37;37;10 - 00;37;40;07
you need to like, do complete,
00;37;40;07 - 00;37;42;29
you know, operation security
and like get a separate phone
00;37;42;29 - 00;37;45;02
and you can't use any Google products
for things and all this other stuff
00;37;45;02 - 00;37;47;04
that I was just like, again, I was like,
you know,
00;37;47;04 - 00;37;49;17
like Google is never going to like,
punish us for this, right?
00;37;49;17 - 00;37;51;03
You know,
00;37;51;03 - 00;37;53;15
what I do,
I think that, you know, now, knowing what
00;37;53;15 - 00;37;56;15
I know that,
00;37;56;23 - 00;37;58;09
people who strive
00;37;58;09 - 00;38;02;11
to make change, it usually doesn't go
well for them, right?
00;38;02;11 - 00;38;03;10
In a short term way.
00;38;03;10 - 00;38;07;09
It's not like you can necessarily say, oh,
Google, walk out like transformed Google
00;38;07;09 - 00;38;09;13
and there's sexism is gone,
you know, or something.
00;38;09;13 - 00;38;12;22
Or Google is like never going
to have executives who abuse power.
00;38;12;22 - 00;38;16;20
I mean, you know, that said, I think it,
00;38;18;01 - 00;38;20;14
it was part of this bigger culture.
00;38;20;14 - 00;38;24;29
But it also catalyzed a conversation,
I think, within people,
00;38;24;29 - 00;38;27;29
very much like an older version of myself
where,
00;38;28;03 - 00;38;30;26
you know, someone,
it was out in plain air.
00;38;30;26 - 00;38;31;16
What's the delta
00;38;31;16 - 00;38;34;21
between how Google describes itself
and these sort of like values on paper,
00;38;34;21 - 00;38;38;27
and how a big company
that's a big kind of machine is the system
00;38;38;27 - 00;38;42;14
and how it actually operates,
and the kind of humanity and authenticity.
00;38;42;14 - 00;38;45;27
And, you know, I think it's
tremendously healthy for people to, like,
00;38;45;27 - 00;38;49;17
not be so obsessed with their company
is like going to change the world.
00;38;49;17 - 00;38;52;17
And it's a unicorn magical place
like all this other stuff that
00;38;52;18 - 00;38;54;27
whether or not
I was completely sold in on that,
00;38;54;27 - 00;38;56;22
you know,
that was more the direction that I was in.
00;38;56;22 - 00;38;59;17
I think that, you know,
it was a really powerful,
00;39;00;19 - 00;39;03;06
moment
for me to kind of like learn and grow.
00;39;03;06 - 00;39;06;16
And it was so shocking to be like kind of
pushed out the company on the other end.
00;39;06;16 - 00;39;07;10
And I'm just like, oh my God.
00;39;07;10 - 00;39;09;20
Because at the end of the book,
you know, like pregnant.
00;39;09;20 - 00;39;11;22
And I'm like, you know, that's
00;39;11;22 - 00;39;15;19
it was a really kind of weird situation
for me to be like, wait a minute.
00;39;15;19 - 00;39;15;24
What?
00;39;15;24 - 00;39;18;24
Like, how did that, like, just go
so spectacularly wrong?
00;39;19;22 - 00;39;21;10
But, you know, I think that
00;39;21;10 - 00;39;24;10
the kind of silver lining of it is that,
00;39;25;02 - 00;39;28;08
you know, it forced me to kind of
have a bit more agency over my own life.
00;39;28;08 - 00;39;32;12
It's a little bit the message of the book
that, you know, you know, buyer beware.
00;39;32;12 - 00;39;36;17
If you wholesale import
a corporation's worldview and,
00;39;36;17 - 00;39;39;29
you know, kind of hit your wagon,
I guess, for, for a lack of a better way
00;39;39;29 - 00;39;42;22
to put it, if you hit your wagon
so hard to one place,
00;39;42;22 - 00;39;44;10
I feel like there are many times
where I might have left
00;39;44;10 - 00;39;47;26
Google in the book
because I was sort of like, so unhappy or,
00;39;48;09 - 00;39;51;22
you know, dissatisfied, bored or whatever,
but it was like unfathomable
00;39;51;22 - 00;39;56;25
because my, identity, for various reasons,
had become so fuzed with the company.
00;39;56;25 - 00;39;59;28
And then, you know,
we kind of broke up like someone said,
00;40;01;00 - 00;40;03;23
have a friend who left Google was saying
that they,
00;40;03;23 - 00;40;07;20
after they left Google, were served
a Spotify playlist about breakups.
00;40;07;20 - 00;40;08;05
And they were like,
00;40;08;05 - 00;40;11;05
as I'm listening to it, I'm like,
why is this reminding me of Google?
00;40;11;12 - 00;40;14;02
It's like not every workplace, you know,
00;40;14;02 - 00;40;18;06
kind of sets its teeth in emotionally,
psychologically, you know, whatever.
00;40;18;06 - 00;40;19;20
But I think that and I don't even know
00;40;19;20 - 00;40;21;19
if if Google
is capable of doing that anymore.
00;40;21;19 - 00;40;23;27
I'm sure some people like anthropic
or something.
00;40;23;27 - 00;40;27;01
These other companies, like people
probably having that kind of like
00;40;27;01 - 00;40;30;06
cultish family feeling still exists,
you know, in tech.
00;40;30;08 - 00;40;31;24
Very it's very much how they do it.
00;40;31;24 - 00;40;33;18
But, you know,
I think there's more skepticism
00;40;33;18 - 00;40;34;25
and whatever
with some of these big companies.
00;40;34;25 - 00;40;38;20
But all this is to say, it's
such an emotional job.
00;40;38;20 - 00;40;40;18
And I like I think I came to,
00;40;41;22 - 00;40;42;04
I came
00;40;42;04 - 00;40;45;27
to realize that, you know, it's
much healthier, more interesting.
00;40;45;27 - 00;40;47;21
You can have a richer life,
you know, if you're not.
00;40;47;21 - 00;40;51;02
So, like, fuzed with your kind of like,
institutional workplace.
00;40;51;13 - 00;40;55;18
So, yeah, like, I definitely have it,
you know, because I left in 2019.
00;40;55;18 - 00;40;56;20
So I was like Covid,
00;40;56;20 - 00;40;59;28
I had this like other kid
and my life just like changed so much.
00;40;59;28 - 00;41;01;16
I kind of like became a sort of part
00;41;01;16 - 00;41;04;25
time worker,
stay at home mom for a few years almost.
00;41;05;07 - 00;41;07;22
And, you know, it was really hard
because I was like, wow.
00;41;07;22 - 00;41;11;08
And you're like in charge of your time
and, you know, you have to kind of go
00;41;11;08 - 00;41;13;16
and figure out what to do
and how to make money and all this things.
00;41;13;16 - 00;41;17;05
It's like, it's so much easier
to just be kind of like on the train.
00;41;17;05 - 00;41;17;17
Right?
00;41;18;18 - 00;41;19;12
But, you know,
00;41;19;12 - 00;41;22;13
you know, ultimately it was a really kind
of profound and healthy shift
00;41;22;13 - 00;41;23;05
for me in my life.
00;41;23;05 - 00;41;27;19
So, yeah, there's things that I think
that definitely when I look back at,
00;41;27;20 - 00;41;29;12
you know, how I kind of like escalated
00;41;29;12 - 00;41;32;12
the retaliation
and all these things like it,
00;41;33;17 - 00;41;37;01
it, you know, I think I still see how much
00;41;37;01 - 00;41;40;07
I kind of believed that
the system would, like, make it right.
00;41;41;10 - 00;41;44;15
And, you know, it
kind of just kept deteriorating.
00;41;44;15 - 00;41;47;23
I wonder if that sort of like, by design
that, like, the more you kind of like.
00;41;48;13 - 00;41;52;03
Because my boss, who I was accusing
of retaliation, started to be like,
00;41;53;15 - 00;41;55;10
you know,
you're making things really hard for me.
00;41;55;10 - 00;41;56;27
Like, it's really hurtful for me
that you're, like,
00;41;56;27 - 00;42;00;29
making these claims, which is like, crazy,
you know, it's like, it's it, you know,
00;42;00;29 - 00;42;04;16
it was so emotional, you know,
but it was totally gaslighting.
00;42;04;27 - 00;42;07;27
But I was like,
I was so it was so stressful.
00;42;07;27 - 00;42;10;16
I think that that's, you know,
I wonder if I might have approached it.
00;42;11;29 - 00;42;14;12
You know, just purely
from a legal standpoint or something,
00;42;14;12 - 00;42;15;20
you know, like, I'm like, okay,
this is wrong.
00;42;15;20 - 00;42;16;26
So I'm just going to take this
to the lawyer
00;42;16;26 - 00;42;20;21
as opposed to what I tried to do,
which was spend that last bit of belief,
00;42;20;24 - 00;42;23;13
you know, and capital in the company
to go through this process,
00;42;23;13 - 00;42;26;02
which is so crazy
and so full of these moments
00;42;26;02 - 00;42;28;10
where they're like suggesting
I take a medical leave.
00;42;28;10 - 00;42;31;26
There's a the first HR person I told,
first HR person I talked to told me
00;42;32;03 - 00;42;34;25
I should like,
you know, proposed taking my manager
00;42;34;25 - 00;42;37;18
out of the office for like, an activity
or coffee or something.
00;42;37;18 - 00;42;40;00
I'm just like it
was. It's the gaslighting.
00;42;40;00 - 00;42;43;16
I'm just, like, pushing it back down
to the person created a few months that,
00;42;43;16 - 00;42;46;16
you know, I still feel like for my younger
kid, I'm like, I was so stressed out
00;42;46;17 - 00;42;49;21
during pregnancy with you,
but please protect yourself.
00;42;50;21 - 00;42;51;07
But yeah,
00;42;51;07 - 00;42;54;21
it it it it I think I made my life
a little harder
00;42;54;21 - 00;42;57;25
with, with my last gasp of, like,
believing Google would make it right.
00;42;57;25 - 00;43;01;05
But, for the most part,
I, I feel also that,
00;43;01;28 - 00;43;04;22
speaking out so much about
00;43;04;22 - 00;43;06;25
just the kind of like, disingenuous
two faced
00;43;06;25 - 00;43;09;29
nature of a corporation
or Google in particular.
00;43;09;29 - 00;43;14;19
It's like I've had such an interesting,
imbalance of like the,
00;43;15;17 - 00;43;17;26
I've just other people commiserating,
you know, people like,
00;43;17;26 - 00;43;19;28
I remember this email
I got from someone who was like,
00;43;19;28 - 00;43;23;29
I was at IBM in Romania in the 1980s,
and like, they made my life hell.
00;43;23;29 - 00;43;26;03
And I'm just like,
you know, it's like everybody,
00;43;26;03 - 00;43;29;11
I think a lot of different
people can relate to feeling so small.
00;43;29;11 - 00;43;32;11
And if you have,
it really comes down to like,
00;43;32;19 - 00;43;35;18
you know, obviously this is a really big
conflict with the company, but, you know,
00;43;35;18 - 00;43;39;20
you can read my story
as this sort of like a management tragedy.
00;43;39;20 - 00;43;43;20
You know, it's sort of like the, the,
the manager exerting this power,
00;43;44;11 - 00;43;48;09
you know, reinforcing the powerlessness
of the employee,
00;43;49;01 - 00;43;50;23
the kind of cautionary tale of that.
00;43;50;23 - 00;43;51;19
And I'd be really curious.
00;43;51;19 - 00;43;56;03
I'm really curious if, that manager,
I'm sure she would never admit weakness
00;43;56;03 - 00;43;57;11
or reflection care,
00;43;57;11 - 00;43;59;01
but if she feels like
00;43;59;01 - 00;44;00;15
it could have been handled
any differently,
00;44;00;15 - 00;44;02;14
if that situation
could have been mediated.
00;44;02;14 - 00;44;05;00
So it wasn't, you know,
kind of so dramatic as it was, but,
00;44;06;09 - 00;44;06;26
you know.
00;44;06;26 - 00;44;09;24
Yeah. So it was
a great learning experience at this point.
00;44;09;24 - 00;44;12;14
I was I sort of like process
the trauma of it.
00;44;12;14 - 00;44;14;05
I'm like, yeah, well, it is what it is.
00;44;14;05 - 00;44;15;26
It was the fire, the temper, the steel.
00;44;15;26 - 00;44;18;26
My like crazy trajectory at Google.
00;44;19;15 - 00;44;20;19
That that's that's the spirit.
00;44;20;19 - 00;44;24;13
I like that, I like that analogy
and that that sentiment of.
00;44;24;14 - 00;44;26;14
Yeah, tempering.
00;44;26;14 - 00;44;29;06
So you know, clear
00;44;29;06 - 00;44;32;08
to me, like the most interesting part
of all of this is,
00;44;32;22 - 00;44;35;22
you know, you had such a unique
front row seat to this,
00;44;36;04 - 00;44;39;03
but the the experience itself
00;44;39;03 - 00;44;42;09
of becoming disillusioned
with your employer,
00;44;42;14 - 00;44;45;13
with believing that
00;44;45;13 - 00;44;48;02
they should be operating
within a certain values
00;44;48;02 - 00;44;52;02
framework, that they have your back,
that they're going to adhere to some,
00;44;52;11 - 00;44;56;09
you know, I don't know,
some sort of moral foundation
00;44;56;09 - 00;45;00;25
that's better than like a cost
benefit analysis or like the bare minimum.
00;45;01;08 - 00;45;05;24
And then watching that fall apart
and just feeling like, should I speak up?
00;45;05;24 - 00;45;07;08
Should I do the courageous thing?
00;45;07;08 - 00;45;09;27
Am I going to get punished
if I do the courageous thing like
00;45;11;06 - 00;45;13;03
I? I feel extremely confident
00;45;13;03 - 00;45;17;15
that there are literally millions
of people in some version of that.
00;45;18;01 - 00;45;19;28
You know that plight right now.
00;45;19;28 - 00;45;22;15
What's what's your advice to them?
00;45;22;15 - 00;45;24;04
Like,
what's your advice to your younger self?
00;45;24;04 - 00;45;27;03
What's your advice to somebody
who's in this scenario
00;45;27;06 - 00;45;30;01
and doesn't know what to do?
00;45;30;01 - 00;45;32;19
I think you have to be sort of clear
eyed about the risks.
00;45;32;19 - 00;45;35;19
And in organizing, there's a lot of,
00;45;35;28 - 00;45;38;29
conversation
about the spectrum of risk tolerance.
00;45;38;29 - 00;45;41;20
And yeah, there were
there are people that,
00;45;41;20 - 00;45;45;10
you know, were deeply passionate about
certain ethical issues within the company.
00;45;45;10 - 00;45;47;17
It was personal for them.
00;45;47;17 - 00;45;50;17
But they wanted to remain anonymous
because they're, you know,
00;45;50;19 - 00;45;53;25
sending money home to their family or,
you know, these things are like
00;45;53;25 - 00;45;55;16
it's completely fair
to want to keep your job.
00;45;55;16 - 00;45;58;13
And that's, you know, a risk
that not everyone's going to want to take.
00;45;58;13 - 00;45;59;03
I think that,
00;46;00;22 - 00;46;02;06
you know,
00;46;02;06 - 00;46;05;24
my advice to people usually
is to find a job where, you know,
00;46;05;24 - 00;46;09;08
you don't feel like you're so compromised
that it's sort of like you're,
00;46;10;04 - 00;46;14;20
the manager, the nature of the work,
the skills that you bring to the job,
00;46;14;20 - 00;46;16;06
that there's something sort of like,
00;46;16;06 - 00;46;18;06
you know, something
you can sink your teeth into,
00;46;18;06 - 00;46;20;00
maybe not have to, you know,
00;46;20;00 - 00;46;22;13
tack some, you know,
kind of big ideological framework
00;46;22;13 - 00;46;25;12
that you're changing the world or so
the grandiosity that I saw at Google. But,
00;46;26;18 - 00;46;30;09
I think that there's so many small ways
that you can make a better world.
00;46;30;09 - 00;46;31;28
I mean, honestly,
it's like I think that, you know,
00;46;31;28 - 00;46;37;04
some of probably that some of the, stuff
I'm, I look back on in my career
00;46;37;04 - 00;46;40;04
as I became a manager was,
you know, you sit in the,
00;46;40;20 - 00;46;44;14
performance reviews
and you understand all the kind of, like,
00;46;44;14 - 00;46;46;22
implicit bias that comes in,
you know, all the,
00;46;46;22 - 00;46;49;18
some of the very subjective ways
people's value is measured.
00;46;49;18 - 00;46;52;21
And, you know, it, it replicates,
you know,
00;46;52;27 - 00;46;55;21
really kind of like complicated
human systems.
00;46;55;21 - 00;46;58;14
I think that there, you know,
there's a way to kind of like speak up
00;46;58;14 - 00;47;00;03
for other people and like,
00;47;00;03 - 00;47;02;12
use a little bit of your privilege
without, you know,
00;47;02;12 - 00;47;05;11
kind of blowing your wad like me and,
you know, getting fired or whatever, but,
00;47;07;04 - 00;47;08;28
yeah, I think that, like,
00;47;08;28 - 00;47;14;23
cultivating a mind where you can observe,
you know, what the company's doing.
00;47;15;07 - 00;47;17;20
Stay in touch
with your own kind of values.
00;47;17;20 - 00;47;18;13
And I think that,
00;47;18;13 - 00;47;20;13
you know, as I've seen along
the way, people reach a point
00;47;20;13 - 00;47;24;15
where they just get fed up with it,
and then you either, you know,
00;47;25;15 - 00;47;29;11
try to commit to your
to make your dissent known.
00;47;29;11 - 00;47;33;02
And I remember I so admired
in my old department, which didn't really
00;47;33;02 - 00;47;36;02
welcome people challenging authority
the way that,
00;47;36;08 - 00;47;38;00
it wasn't sort of Google in the old days,
00;47;38;00 - 00;47;39;27
but people who would ask
challenging questions.
00;47;39;27 - 00;47;41;29
And I think that,
00;47;41;29 - 00;47;45;11
you know, it can't be all people
who are, like, perfectly compliant.
00;47;45;11 - 00;47;46;17
It's like they're there.
00;47;46;17 - 00;47;47;27
There's I think there's there's
00;47;47;27 - 00;47;51;06
kind of sophisticated ways that people
can maintain their own humanity.
00;47;52;03 - 00;47;54;19
Try to check the balances of power,
00;47;54;19 - 00;47;58;00
maybe in small ways in their teams
or in bigger ways in the sort of like,
00;47;58;26 - 00;48;02;15
you know, organizing as well as, but,
you know, like being aware of your,
00;48;02;15 - 00;48;05;15
your, your privilege and being prepared
to spend a little bit of it,
00;48;05;28 - 00;48;09;28
is, is, is is like how kind of like
slow ruptures and changes happen.
00;48;10;25 - 00;48;13;29
Over time, I think people are offered
opportunities to make,
00;48;14;09 - 00;48;15;28
small changes in a lot of different ways.
00;48;15;28 - 00;48;18;08
And I've also seen, you know,
what kind of disappoints me is
00;48;18;08 - 00;48;20;01
I see a lot of people
put their head in the sand, you know,
00;48;20;01 - 00;48;24;24
when they certainly, like, even like
I couple there, a couple people that,
00;48;26;10 - 00;48;26;23
we're kind of
00;48;26;23 - 00;48;29;23
close colleagues of mine, and they,
00;48;30;17 - 00;48;34;10
when I left, they never said anything or,
you know, it's like.
00;48;34;19 - 00;48;37;15
And sometimes, like,
if those people now you know, years later,
00;48;37;15 - 00;48;39;24
they'll be like,
you know, commenting on, like an Instagram
00;48;39;24 - 00;48;42;23
story of mine or something,
or like just some minor thing, right?
00;48;42;23 - 00;48;44;16
Might a minor touchpoint.
00;48;44;16 - 00;48;46;23
A couple of these people
in the writing of the book,
00;48;46;23 - 00;48;49;23
I actually responded to them to say,
I'm curious
00;48;50;02 - 00;48;52;27
what happened when I left
and you saw your friend from work
00;48;52;27 - 00;48;56;14
go through this
like crazy traumatic rupture
00;48;56;14 - 00;48;58;22
and kind of like the
this like was awful, as,
00;48;58;22 - 00;49;01;01
like the heads of my department were like,
Claire's a liar.
00;49;01;01 - 00;49;02;01
She's making up this whole thing.
00;49;02;01 - 00;49;04;24
I mean, it was like,
kind of crazy, situation.
00;49;04;24 - 00;49;08;10
And, you know,
I had this one of these conversations.
00;49;08;11 - 00;49;11;24
Someone said to me,
I was basically like to check in, like,
00;49;11;24 - 00;49;15;23
I, I felt that, you know, they were
management was saying one thing.
00;49;15;23 - 00;49;18;23
And to, like,
even express support to you privately was,
00;49;19;20 - 00;49;21;21
something that I didn't feel comfortable
with at the time.
00;49;21;21 - 00;49;24;07
And I'm just like, don't be that person.
00;49;24;07 - 00;49;27;21
Like, I just can't imagine, like,
I personally can't imagine being like,
00;49;27;27 - 00;49;31;26
I need to now be like so in my box
of like the management line
00;49;32;04 - 00;49;34;29
that when I see something
that's so clearly wrong
00;49;34;29 - 00;49;38;02
that, you know, I couldn't like, you know,
reach out to my friend or whatever.
00;49;38;02 - 00;49;39;15
So I feel like,
00;49;39;15 - 00;49;42;09
you know, having a little bit of courage,
a little bit of moral
00;49;42;09 - 00;49;45;24
outrage is a really important thing
to, like, maintain in a world where,
00;49;46;23 - 00;49;48;25
you know, things are so complicated
00;49;48;25 - 00;49;53;01
and we do feel so small, and, you know,
the kind of ripple effect that can exist.
00;49;53;01 - 00;49;54;20
And I think that
but the kind of good thing
00;49;54;20 - 00;49;57;20
now is, as opposed to in 2007,
where I would have been really weird
00;49;57;20 - 00;50;00;26
if you were like saying, oh, Google,
is this like evil company or whatever.
00;50;00;26 - 00;50;03;26
Now, people,
there's so much more awareness of the,
00;50;03;27 - 00;50;07;24
you know, complex influence
that tech is having on our lives.
00;50;07;24 - 00;50;11;26
And a lot of people are reading
nefarious influences and or,
00;50;12;07 - 00;50;15;06
you know, crazy,
kind of like capitalistic,
00;50;15;09 - 00;50;18;16
you know, goals having like,
these companies in a chokehold
00;50;18;16 - 00;50;20;00
such that, like, who cares about what
00;50;20;00 - 00;50;22;13
their values are on paper,
they're just soulless or whatever.
00;50;22;13 - 00;50;25;25
So all this is to say, the little there's
the, these little kind of cracks here
00;50;26;00 - 00;50;30;20
where people are freer to think,
to think more freely and not be so like,
00;50;30;20 - 00;50;33;20
you know, what management says is
true or whatever. So.
00;50;33;27 - 00;50;34;04
Yeah,
00;50;35;12 - 00;50;38;28
that that transition, I guess, culturally
is like
00;50;39;07 - 00;50;42;16
one of the things that makes me feel
really sad is like, I don't know, I'm
00;50;42;16 - 00;50;44;19
sure you remember, like that age,
you kind of described it
00;50;44;19 - 00;50;48;26
where like, talent mattered and people
wanted to like, measure employee
00;50;48;26 - 00;50;53;03
engagement and like, yeah, it felt like
what you thought mattered versus, you
00;50;53;03 - 00;50;56;13
know, companies are kind of like clamoring
to replace you
00;50;56;25 - 00;50;59;22
at the drop of a hat.
00;50;59;22 - 00;51;01;24
Now, I'm curious,
00;51;01;24 - 00;51;05;03
from your perspective,
you made a throwaway comment earlier
00;51;05;03 - 00;51;08;03
about anthropic and,
oh, maybe things are better at anthropic.
00;51;08;28 - 00;51;12;27
Do you have any sense, like Google in its
heyday was sort of this paragon
00;51;12;27 - 00;51;17;03
of being people driven, value driven art,
00;51;17;09 - 00;51;19;18
you know, that
that crown seems to have fallen.
00;51;19;18 - 00;51;20;19
That's pretty clear.
00;51;20;19 - 00;51;23;05
Are there organizations now?
00;51;23;05 - 00;51;26;23
You know that you hear people
talking about that you feel are, you know,
00;51;27;10 - 00;51;31;15
picking up that mantle and are,
you know, leading the charge there?
00;51;31;15 - 00;51;34;15
Or is this just like, really, you know,
00;51;34;19 - 00;51;38;16
the lost idealism of the age
and the world has moved on from.
00;51;38;23 - 00;51;42;00
I think, maybe a little bit the latter,
but I find the anthropic example
00;51;42;00 - 00;51;45;14
interesting because I can't really assess
the sincerity of it.
00;51;45;14 - 00;51;48;07
But I think it's a really good
marketing tool.
00;51;48;07 - 00;51;52;02
And, you know, I think that the that,
that, Google vacated
00;51;52;02 - 00;51;57;13
a spot of sort of
like the virtuous Googley corporation and,
00;51;58;16 - 00;52;00;24
I think that, you know, even though,
00;52;00;24 - 00;52;03;06
as I said,
I think a lot of the kind of ideals
00;52;03;06 - 00;52;08;06
and the kind of philosophy they were
exporting was pretty sincere at the time.
00;52;08;06 - 00;52;10;24
It also was really self-serving.
00;52;10;24 - 00;52;11;19
And I think that, like, you know,
00;52;11;19 - 00;52;14;19
even the, you know, the campus design or,
you know, taking the,
00;52;15;13 - 00;52;19;01
journalists around from, you know, Germany
and France and people would be like,
00;52;19;01 - 00;52;22;05
this is obviously like a big plot
to just keep the workers here, you know,
00;52;22;05 - 00;52;24;01
24 seven. I'm like, squeeze
the most out of them.
00;52;24;01 - 00;52;24;17
And, you know,
00;52;24;17 - 00;52;28;09
kind of like, wow, what a cynical,
you know, skeptical kind of perspective.
00;52;28;20 - 00;52;31;17
But of course, it was powerful
because it did
00;52;31;17 - 00;52;34;19
attract, an amazing group of people.
00;52;34;19 - 00;52;38;24
And, you know, that, you know,
those were some kind of glory years
00;52;38;24 - 00;52;40;26
where, you know, people felt really good
about working there.
00;52;40;26 - 00;52;43;11
And they did want to like,
you know, give 110% all these things,
00;52;43;11 - 00;52;45;10
like those two things
kind of work symbiotically.
00;52;46;20 - 00;52;47;26
So anyway, so as I've seen,
00;52;47;26 - 00;52;51;28
kind of like some of these AI companies,
really use a lot of that rhetoric.
00;52;51;28 - 00;52;53;16
I'm reading Empire of AI right now,
00;52;53;16 - 00;52;56;20
which is such a good book,
but it talks a lot about this.
00;52;56;20 - 00;53;00;22
This, you know, how these companies
sort of set the stakes of, you know,
00;53;00;22 - 00;53;04;12
humanity is that, you know, this is
everything in the world is at stake.
00;53;04;12 - 00;53;07;29
And, you know, the the survival
of the human race, even, and all this
00;53;08;10 - 00;53;11;10
and I think that,
it does attract a certain
00;53;11;10 - 00;53;14;17
kind of person that, you know, is deeply
invested in humanity.
00;53;14;17 - 00;53;14;26
Right?
00;53;14;26 - 00;53;18;02
And like, why would a company
not want people that are,
00;53;18;02 - 00;53;20;09
you know, tremendously,
you know, creative and real,
00;53;20;09 - 00;53;23;02
and now you see what the pay packages are
for people in AI.
00;53;23;02 - 00;53;26;12
Like clearly these companies
do believe talent is really important.
00;53;27;14 - 00;53;28;21
And so I just hear kind of
00;53;28;21 - 00;53;31;15
from friends in tech
that it's like like, you know,
00;53;31;15 - 00;53;33;26
wow, everyone's trying to like go work
at anthropic now and all this.
00;53;33;26 - 00;53;36;15
And I'm like,
you know, I it's I can't assess.
00;53;36;15 - 00;53;39;15
Wow. Is that a pure hearted,
like a pure hearted,
00;53;40;02 - 00;53;41;28
you know, direction
for the enterprise? Just.
00;53;41;28 - 00;53;44;06
Do they really know
when the going gets tough?
00;53;44;06 - 00;53;45;16
Would they stick to those values,
00;53;45;16 - 00;53;48;29
or is it just,
a really powerful market positioning to,
00;53;50;00 - 00;53;52;25
It's probably a mix, right? So,
00;53;52;25 - 00;53;55;05
you know, and I think that, you know,
it still is a story of tech.
00;53;55;05 - 00;53;57;26
So I, as I said, with,
you know, my chain of management,
00;53;57;26 - 00;54;01;02
if they really didn't
care about being perceived as,
00;54;01;03 - 00;54;04;13
you know, a wonderful company
that really cares about people, you know,
00;54;04;20 - 00;54;07;04
they wouldn't put op eds out,
you know, saying how they're,
00;54;07;04 - 00;54;08;24
you know, such a wonderful company,
constantly
00;54;08;24 - 00;54;11;24
reflecting on how to,
you know, be more inclusive and,
00;54;11;26 - 00;54;13;12
you know, all these other things,
even at a time when,
00;54;13;12 - 00;54;16;07
like, Dei is like kind of
fallen out of favor and such.
00;54;17;11 - 00;54;19;10
But, you
know, something in these companies,
00;54;19;10 - 00;54;22;14
even if they're constantly threatening
to replace white collar workers,
00;54;22;18 - 00;54;27;01
something in them wants to attract
and retain talent.
00;54;27;01 - 00;54;28;25
Right. So,
00;54;28;25 - 00;54;31;17
yeah,
I think it's I'm definitely interested to,
00;54;31;17 - 00;54;35;12
to follow like some of the parallels
between that early time, at Google
00;54;35;12 - 00;54;39;10
and AI because it seems like the
AI wars are sort of like heating up
00;54;39;10 - 00;54;42;03
the way I remember,
like the social media wars heating up,
00;54;42;03 - 00;54;44;29
which felt like, you know, much less crazy
stakes, because now the world seems like
00;54;44;29 - 00;54;47;29
it's like, you know,
going to hell in a handbasket. But,
00;54;48;21 - 00;54;52;25
yeah, that that the rhetoric
seems to be really, really sweeping again.
00;54;52;27 - 00;54;56;12
So like the, you know, not not just
00;54;56;12 - 00;54;59;14
changing the world, but like, saving
humanity is like, just kind of like, wow,
00;54;59;14 - 00;55;02;27
could there be a bigger stake,
like bigger stakes?
00;55;03;22 - 00;55;05;12
There's a
00;55;05;12 - 00;55;06;27
there's an implication in something
you said, though,
00;55;06;27 - 00;55;08;20
that I find really
interesting, which is that
00;55;10;06 - 00;55;13;27
being people focused, being virtuous,
like,
00;55;14;22 - 00;55;16;18
sure,
there's a world where you're doing it
00;55;16;18 - 00;55;19;24
for its own sake, and it's just because
it's the right thing to do.
00;55;19;24 - 00;55;23;09
And, you know, I sadly, I think you and I
are both a bit too cynical
00;55;23;09 - 00;55;24;26
to believe that, but that it's also
00;55;24;26 - 00;55;28;23
just like it's good for business
to be focused on people, right?
00;55;28;23 - 00;55;32;01
You can attract and retain talent,
you can build a better company,
00;55;32;01 - 00;55;33;17
you can build better products.
00;55;33;17 - 00;55;36;19
And like, I don't know, like to me
it's just sort of with that
00;55;36;26 - 00;55;39;20
mindset, it's just tragic
that we're losing that.
00;55;39;20 - 00;55;42;23
And it feels like if you're a good leader,
00;55;43;10 - 00;55;46;10
you don't have to be caring about people.
00;55;46;11 - 00;55;49;19
Just because you know you're virtuous.
00;55;49;19 - 00;55;51;02
It'd be nice if you were, but like,
00;55;51;02 - 00;55;54;02
it is still the right business decision
to do it to.
00;55;54;04 - 00;55;57;21
And that doesn't mean like, hey, write an
op ed and like Pat yourself on the back.
00;55;57;21 - 00;56;01;02
You did it like actually valuing people.
00;56;01;02 - 00;56;04;15
And it just seems like it's it's
the right business thing to do.
00;56;05;10 - 00;56;07;08
Yeah.
I think like leadership still matters.
00;56;07;08 - 00;56;09;26
I think that's a little bit
was sad coming out of the,
00;56;09;26 - 00;56;10;05
you know,
00;56;10;05 - 00;56;13;29
and I think it could absolutely be
some of the like unique complexities of
00;56;14;00 - 00;56;14;24
Google's leadership.
00;56;14;24 - 00;56;20;13
I think it's really hard to be a leader
in, you know, in a world where,
00;56;21;29 - 00;56;22;17
you know, the
00;56;22;17 - 00;56;26;13
shareholder dynamics
drive a lot of business decisions,
00;56;26;27 - 00;56;30;05
where things are really complex
and there's a lot of eyes on Google on it,
00;56;30;05 - 00;56;30;25
you know, all those other things.
00;56;30;25 - 00;56;36;08
But I kept waiting for leadership
kind of post walkout to like,
00;56;36;28 - 00;56;40;03
to figure out how to, like,
not just neutralize
00;56;40;15 - 00;56;42;26
what the women of the company
were bringing to leadership,
00;56;42;26 - 00;56;47;02
but to, like, actually hear it, you know,
and I think that that for whatever reason
00;56;47;02 - 00;56;52;08
and that moment, the threat of further
organizing became so existential
00;56;52;09 - 00;56;55;15
for the company that they just had
to, like, clamp you know,
00;56;55;15 - 00;56;59;03
and and that's exactly what happened
with my chain of, of leadership,
00;56;59;03 - 00;57;01;07
which I don't think that we're like
the most amazing leaders anyway.
00;57;01;07 - 00;57;02;19
And unfortunately,
I think you end up this, like
00;57;02;19 - 00;57;07;10
self-perpetuating cycle where the people
who are the best at serving the system
00;57;07;10 - 00;57;10;09
kind of get, keep, continue
to get elevated instead of the people who
00;57;10;09 - 00;57;11;06
know how to like,
00;57;12;06 - 00;57;15;02
maybe, you know, deal with the friction.
00;57;15;02 - 00;57;17;28
You know, kind of create stronger,
more resilient cultures like that.
00;57;17;28 - 00;57;20;19
That was the kind of what I got out of
Google at the end was like, wow,
00;57;20;19 - 00;57;22;07
how fragile is that?
00;57;22;07 - 00;57;25;07
Is the leadership in this culture
at the one of the walkouts,
00;57;25;18 - 00;57;28;05
tariffs or town halls? They did.
00;57;28;05 - 00;57;30;21
One of the executives was like,
you know, went
00;57;30;21 - 00;57;34;20
on this whole kind of like temper tantrum
rant about how, you know, it was
00;57;34;28 - 00;57;37;28
the way people were talking
about executives in this,
00;57;37;29 - 00;57;42;11
and then walk out and all of our comms
was so discriminatory about executives.
00;57;42;11 - 00;57;44;18
And it's not all executives,
you know, who are like, you know,
00;57;44;18 - 00;57;48;15
having improper relations that you know,
you know, we're we're really good people.
00;57;48;15 - 00;57;50;10
And you guys are like,
you know, painting this as a broad stroke.
00;57;50;10 - 00;57;51;06
And I'm just like,
00;57;51;06 - 00;57;55;18
yeah, this is what it means to be
a leader is like, you bear a higher.
00;57;55;18 - 00;57;56;13
It's like being a politician.
00;57;56;13 - 00;57;59;13
Like, I mean, not that matters anyone,
but you bear
00;57;59;29 - 00;58;02;14
a higher standard of moral conduct.
00;58;02;14 - 00;58;04;22
You have to absorb more.
That's what you sign up for.
00;58;04;22 - 00;58;08;12
That's why you're getting, like, whatever,
billions of dollars from your fortune.
00;58;09;02 - 00;58;10;13
That's what the money's for.
00;58;10;13 - 00;58;14;02
And, you know, I, I,
I wish to see and I think Larry and Sergey
00;58;14;03 - 00;58;15;27
have changed a lot over time.
00;58;15;27 - 00;58;20;11
Like, if you look at the, you know, the
there's a leaked video from TGIF
00;58;20;11 - 00;58;22;15
when Trump was elected
and you have Sergei, who was kind of
00;58;22;15 - 00;58;23;14
always like, sort of considered
00;58;23;14 - 00;58;26;16
to be the sort of moral bellwether,
sort of like you can't he's a contrarian.
00;58;26;16 - 00;58;27;14
You're just going to do it.
00;58;27;14 - 00;58;29;21
He's going to stand up
for what he cares about morally,
00;58;29;21 - 00;58;31;20
even if it's not
what the board wants or something.
00;58;31;20 - 00;58;35;02
And he was he goes like, he's this, this
kind of like beautiful remarks about how,
00;58;35;28 - 00;58;39;06
you know, how disappointed
he was in the election, you know,
00;58;39;06 - 00;58;42;14
and how it you kind of like, offend
so deeply offended his values, but,
00;58;42;14 - 00;58;44;29
you know, wanted to understand,
you know, why this happened.
00;58;44;29 - 00;58;49;28
And, you know, it's just sort of like,
the some of these things he holds so dear,
00;58;49;28 - 00;58;51;08
you know, as like an immigrant and,
00;58;51;08 - 00;58;52;22
you know,
all these other things of the country and,
00;58;52;22 - 00;58;55;09
you know, someone who cares about women
or whatever, all these things.
00;58;55;09 - 00;58;58;05
And then now he's like, you know,
front row at the inauguration behind
00;58;58;05 - 00;59;02;09
Trump, like,
you know, second and he's like,
00;59;02;09 - 00;59;06;05
you know, a huge MAGA guy and saying that,
you know, he was totally brainwashed
00;59;06;05 - 00;59;09;00
before and all this. And I'm just like,
wow, you guys have changed a lot.
00;59;09;00 - 00;59;11;01
I'm not gonna even I'm
not even ascribing moral value
00;59;11;01 - 00;59;13;27
to any of the statement here or there.
I it's just it's just more of that.
00;59;13;27 - 00;59;17;23
You guys have gotten in line with
sort of like, you know, kind of the power.
00;59;17;23 - 00;59;20;25
And that swung around a few different ways
in the, in the span of time
00;59;20;25 - 00;59;22;01
that we're talking about.
00;59;22;01 - 00;59;24;24
And I think it
probably I'd be really interested
00;59;24;24 - 00;59;28;02
to understand what happens to your brain,
your life, your priorities, your values
00;59;28;07 - 00;59;31;26
as you go through such a stratospheric
like, you know well, events
00;59;31;28 - 00;59;35;04
and like, you know, you live so much life
in the public eye and all these things.
00;59;35;04 - 00;59;37;06
I think it's really hard to stay,
00;59;37;06 - 00;59;38;29
tethered to
your humanity is like the same advice
00;59;38;29 - 00;59;42;25
I have, you know, for kind of like people
at any point, you know, at any stage of
00;59;42;26 - 00;59;43;20
organization. But,
00;59;44;24 - 00;59;46;18
yeah, it's it's really it's
00;59;46;18 - 00;59;50;28
really sad how, how kind of little like,
interesting and authentic leadership.
00;59;50;28 - 00;59;53;11
I see, you know,
at least in this one company
00;59;53;11 - 00;59;56;11
that I've been tracking
and living in for so long.
00;59;57;09 - 00;59;57;24
Yeah.
00;59;57;24 - 01;00;00;24
No, it's it's fair and it's it.
01;00;01;03 - 01;00;01;14
Yeah.
01;00;01;14 - 01;00;04;24
It's, it's own kind of depressing to,
I guess.
01;00;04;24 - 01;00;08;22
See that abdication of
of value driven leadership there.
01;00;09;13 - 01;00;09;29
Yeah.
01;00;09;29 - 01;00;14;16
One of the things you mentioned, Claire,
as you were talking was about leadership.
01;00;14;16 - 01;00;18;02
Like, not actually hearing the concerns.
01;00;18;14 - 01;00;20;11
And, you know, hearing was the verb there.
01;00;20;11 - 01;00;22;10
And I'm curious,
01;00;22;10 - 01;00;25;13
and I want to approach this
a little bit delicately, but
01;00;26;14 - 01;00;28;17
the story you lived
in, the story of Google here
01;00;28;17 - 01;00;32;18
that you're telling is in some ways
a very gendered story.
01;00;32;18 - 01;00;37;01
It's the story, as you said,
it's tied to me, to it's, you know,
01;00;38;16 - 01;00;39;22
women
01;00;39;22 - 01;00;43;20
who have had these experiences
sharing them, saying, that's not okay,
01;00;43;20 - 01;00;46;25
comparing notes, saying
we're all having similar experiences,
01;00;46;29 - 01;00;50;08
we're not being heard, and,
you know, we're being mistreated
01;00;50;08 - 01;00;52;23
and there's something we need to be done
that needs to be done about it.
01;00;52;23 - 01;00;56;06
And then ultimately, yeah, not being heard
and then being dismissed in some way.
01;00;58;02 - 01;00;58;21
I'm curious.
01;00;58;21 - 01;01;00;20
And this is coming from,
01;01;00;20 - 01;01;04;14
you know, me and I'm a sample of one,
I've talked to a handful of women who are,
01;01;05;00 - 01;01;09;15
I think almost exclusively x Google Now,
who in my mind are part of this sort of,
01;01;09;22 - 01;01;12;17
you know, resistance movement
or have had some of these experiences have
01;01;12;17 - 01;01;15;17
been, you know,
brave enough to speak out about it.
01;01;15;21 - 01;01;19;19
I don't see a lot of men in that movement.
01;01;19;19 - 01;01;22;22
And I didn't hear about a lot of men
in your story.
01;01;22;22 - 01;01;27;05
And I'm curious, you know what role,
if any, what role, if any of you saw
01;01;27;09 - 01;01;32;23
you saw men playing or not playing and
what you what you see as the role of men
01;01;33;08 - 01;01;37;25
in, I guess, conflict like this, like,
like how can men be a force for good?
01;01;37;27 - 01;01;41;23
And how does this not just become,
oh, it's those damn women and
01;01;41;23 - 01;01;45;10
their problems, you know, like, to me,
this is so obviously everybody's problem.
01;01;45;10 - 01;01;48;19
And I don't know, maybe, anyway, so
so yeah.
01;01;48;19 - 01;01;52;12
It's it's hard, but I think, you know,
things like with the kind of culture
01;01;52;12 - 01;01;55;14
going as it has, I think a lot of
this is sort of swung out of favor.
01;01;55;14 - 01;01;57;10
I mean, at that time in Google,
I think we,
01;01;57;10 - 01;02;00;23
we were doing a lot of like privilege
walks and bias training
01;02;00;23 - 01;02;03;04
and all this other stuff
that was trying to get people
01;02;03;04 - 01;02;06;16
that don't really identify
as being from a marginalized group to
01;02;07;15 - 01;02;10;18
take stock of the ways in
which they have enjoyed a lot of sort of
01;02;10;18 - 01;02;14;14
like privilege in the system that we have
and maybe think about, as I said before,
01;02;14;14 - 01;02;17;14
think about ways that they might, consider
01;02;18;18 - 01;02;21;05
spending some of their privilege
to speak up for others.
01;02;21;05 - 01;02;24;05
But I think that, like, you know, I
01;02;24;05 - 01;02;26;06
with the, with the
with the organizing of Google,
01;02;26;06 - 01;02;29;06
I do think that there is a tradition of,
01;02;29;17 - 01;02;34;10
male engineers who feel very strongly
about the way technology is deployed.
01;02;34;10 - 01;02;36;16
So in a, in a way that's personal for them
01;02;36;16 - 01;02;38;16
because it's like,
I don't want the code that I write.
01;02;38;16 - 01;02;42;11
To be used is like a weapon of war that,
some of the, you know, earlier,
01;02;42;11 - 01;02;45;14
the thing the organizing
that preceded the walkout Maven,
01;02;45;14 - 01;02;48;14
dragonfly, some of these other things
that were about,
01;02;48;20 - 01;02;50;12
there was a movement
called Tech Home, build it.
01;02;50;12 - 01;02;52;04
And I do think there are quite a few,
01;02;53;05 - 01;02;55;27
people on the kind of technology side,
01;02;55;27 - 01;02;58;23
who were willing to stick their neck out
and a lot of who as you say, like
01;02;58;23 - 01;03;01;05
cisgender white men. Right.
01;03;01;05 - 01;03;04;12
But I do think that a lot of times
I be in organizing circles,
01;03;05;17 - 01;03;08;01
it it is women and people of color.
01;03;08;01 - 01;03;11;01
And I think that it is,
01;03;11;04 - 01;03;14;04
it's people who can deeply
01;03;14;05 - 01;03;17;05
relate to, empathize
with, have experienced
01;03;17;11 - 01;03;20;12
something that radicalized them
and a little bit of a way.
01;03;20;12 - 01;03;22;25
Not like, you know,
that doesn't mean you know anyone.
01;03;22;25 - 01;03;26;07
One thing, I just mean that, it made them
01;03;27;07 - 01;03;30;13
feel a bit more kind of like rebellious,
I think of like that.
01;03;30;18 - 01;03;34;03
And it made it personal for them
such that they, feel like something is at
01;03;34;03 - 01;03;37;03
stake for them or, you know, people
that they love and all this other thing.
01;03;37;03 - 01;03;38;14
I think it's why you sort of like
01;03;38;14 - 01;03;41;05
in the MeToo movement,
you somehow see, you know, like Paul
01;03;41;05 - 01;03;44;04
Tessler saying, like as a mother of
or as a father of daughters, you know,
01;03;44;04 - 01;03;45;04
this is personal for me or something.
01;03;45;04 - 01;03;47;26
It's like, whatever it takes,
like make it personal for you.
01;03;47;26 - 01;03;50;23
But it really is personal
for people who have experienced,
01;03;50;23 - 01;03;52;25
discrimination in any form.
I think, like that.
01;03;52;25 - 01;03;54;25
You know, part of the experience
of writing this book is like,
01;03;54;25 - 01;03;57;09
you know, in so many ways, I'm like,
you know, so privileged, right?
01;03;57;09 - 01;04;01;28
So it's like,
you know, I, I, you know, knowing,
01;04;03;02 - 01;04;06;10
trans people and people who have,
01;04;06;22 - 01;04;10;03
you know, Palestinian or Lebanese family
or something who like, you know, as
01;04;10;03 - 01;04;13;05
they see, the way that Google was engaging
in like,
01;04;13;05 - 01;04;16;20
global conflict or in the,
in the trans on the trans issue,
01;04;16;20 - 01;04;19;29
Google was very fickle about,
you know, it support YouTube.
01;04;19;29 - 01;04;22;12
It was constantly like,
we're speaking out for trans kids.
01;04;22;12 - 01;04;25;03
And then it's like, no, we're not,
because this is like not popular anymore.
01;04;25;03 - 01;04;28;05
Or, you know, in this it's less dangerous
now that the administration changed
01;04;28;05 - 01;04;29;03
whatever.
01;04;29;03 - 01;04;32;03
But, you know, people,
01;04;32;03 - 01;04;36;14
I think that, people who, you know, what
what is it?
01;04;36;18 - 01;04;39;17
What does it take
for someone to risk anything?
01;04;39;17 - 01;04;43;27
And I think that the, you know,
the had the deep lived experience,
01;04;44;16 - 01;04;46;29
I think just propels people
to take more of a risk.
01;04;46;29 - 01;04;50;24
So, you know, I think, like I do urge
people who feel like they, you know,
01;04;50;24 - 01;04;53;13
it's like the people
who are so comfortable,
01;04;53;13 - 01;04;57;05
in, in the company, I think like, again,
I'm like, I encourage people to like,
01;04;57;19 - 01;05;00;21
try to cultivate a sense for,
you know, the morality
01;05;00;21 - 01;05;02;17
or lack thereof, of a corporation.
01;05;02;17 - 01;05;05;17
It's the sort of like a neutral,
you know, neutral or negative, whatever.
01;05;05;22 - 01;05;08;16
It's like you know, these decisions
that these, you know, companies make,
01;05;09;26 - 01;05;11;09
you know, don't just become
01;05;11;09 - 01;05;14;20
completely like,
you know, insulated from it.
01;05;15;26 - 01;05;18;24
You know, it's like I sometimes I feel
that, you know, this kind of extreme
01;05;18;24 - 01;05;22;01
cynicism like I've, you know, friends
who are still at these tech companies,
01;05;22;01 - 01;05;23;26
they're like, oh, yeah, of course
these companies are evil.
01;05;23;26 - 01;05;26;02
Like, you know, I just got to keep, like,
collecting my paycheck and whatever.
01;05;26;02 - 01;05;28;08
I'm like, do better.
You can do better, you know? Okay.
01;05;28;08 - 01;05;29;29
We can like, you know, we can try.
01;05;29;29 - 01;05;32;04
We can try to like,
you know, stand up for others
01;05;32;04 - 01;05;36;01
because a lot, a lot of people around out
there, you know, who are more vulnerable,
01;05;36;01 - 01;05;39;27
don't have the same, ability to just say,
I'm just going to kind of like, you know,
01;05;39;27 - 01;05;41;11
laugh it off. Nothing's at stake for me.
01;05;41;11 - 01;05;42;24
Even though I think these companies
are evil.
01;05;42;24 - 01;05;45;24
So, Yeah,
but I do think that they're, you know,
01;05;45;26 - 01;05;48;26
behind the scenes
as we, as we were leaving,
01;05;48;28 - 01;05;50;21
I would say
there were a lot of great allies,
01;05;50;21 - 01;05;53;09
and there were a lot of men
who took part in the in the walkout.
01;05;53;09 - 01;05;54;22
But I think when like, you know,
01;05;54;22 - 01;05;56;12
push came to shove,
like a lot of the people
01;05;56;12 - 01;05;58;06
that are actually really active, engaged.
01;05;58;06 - 01;06;01;08
The other thing I will say
to like a slightly different point
01;06;01;10 - 01;06;05;01
is how I think women are also really used
to doing unpaid work.
01;06;05;01 - 01;06;07;10
It's like I would
I it's like it's almost a cliche,
01;06;07;10 - 01;06;11;03
but like, I was really involved
when I was really involved with my kids,
01;06;12;28 - 01;06;14;11
school, every kid's preschool, you know,
01;06;14;11 - 01;06;17;02
there's like kind of a co-op preschool
in our, Brooklyn neighborhood.
01;06;17;02 - 01;06;18;18
And I would just be like,
looking around these board
01;06;18;18 - 01;06;20;21
meetings and we,
you know, we have some great men,
01;06;20;21 - 01;06;23;25
too, you know, but it's just like,
women are so used to,
01;06;24;22 - 01;06;27;11
supporting their communities
and caregiving, you know, and it's,
01;06;27;11 - 01;06;28;21
you know, it's it's it's
01;06;28;21 - 01;06;31;21
part of how we're oriented to the world
is part of how we're conditioned.
01;06;32;12 - 01;06;35;14
It's part of just how we, like,
you know, how we expect our lives
01;06;35;14 - 01;06;37;22
are going to be that there's like,
you know, that there's
01;06;37;22 - 01;06;38;09
that it's
01;06;38;09 - 01;06;41;11
gratifying and fulfilling and like,
I think that's what the example of being
01;06;41;11 - 01;06;46;24
in the preschool is that women, I think,
are sometimes more able to say it.
01;06;46;27 - 01;06;49;14
I see what's in it for me
because it feels good to like, you know,
01;06;49;14 - 01;06;52;13
show up for my community and spend time
with other people and all this.
01;06;52;24 - 01;06;53;28
Whereas, you know, I think that, you know,
01;06;53;28 - 01;06;57;01
men on the other side are like,
you know, conditioned to like,
01;06;57;24 - 01;07;00;19
think about work and be,
you know, concerned about what
01;07;00;19 - 01;07;01;29
they're taking home
and being the breadwinner,
01;07;01;29 - 01;07;03;02
you know, all these other thing,
you know, these
01;07;03;02 - 01;07;06;04
very kind of like gendered notions
of how we structure our days in our lives.
01;07;07;02 - 01;07;08;26
But yeah, sometimes I like,
you know, like,
01;07;08;26 - 01;07;10;26
have a male friend
in these sort of volunteer positions.
01;07;10;26 - 01;07;12;00
They're like,
it's actually kind of awesome.
01;07;12;00 - 01;07;13;00
Like, you know, it's
01;07;13;00 - 01;07;15;29
like the women, the one guy, you know,
it's like that, you know, like, oh, yeah.
01;07;15;29 - 01;07;16;29
Like I was kind of grumbling
01;07;16;29 - 01;07;18;23
about the time commitment,
but it's going to be great. So,
01;07;20;13 - 01;07;20;23
yeah.
01;07;20;23 - 01;07;22;23
Like it's it is just very it's
just very interesting.
01;07;22;23 - 01;07;27;22
My, my book too is like, you know, when,
when they like the cover of it.
01;07;27;25 - 01;07;29;01
So like Google was like
01;07;29;01 - 01;07;32;07
and I remember saying like one of my early
feedback things about it was like,
01;07;33;09 - 01;07;35;00
can you tell this like a women's book?
01;07;35;00 - 01;07;38;06
Because actually quite a bit of the book
is quite a bit, you know,
01;07;38;07 - 01;07;41;07
quite a bit of points in my arc
which reckoned with,
01;07;41;24 - 01;07;44;05
my condition,
my unique conditioning as a woman
01;07;44;05 - 01;07;47;20
and how that played into
how I approached my role and how difficult
01;07;47;20 - 01;07;50;08
I found it to fight for myself,
for advocate for myself.
01;07;50;08 - 01;07;53;25
How I often fell into to doing sort of
like unpaid work.
01;07;53;25 - 01;07;55;00
And women are constantly doing that.
01;07;55;00 - 01;07;55;27
It's like,
01;07;55;27 - 01;07;58;05
you know, it's not like necessarily more
light needs to be thrown on that.
01;07;58;05 - 01;07;59;28
But, I think that that, that
01;07;59;28 - 01;08;03;01
definitely plays into the sort
of like dynamics of organizing as well.
01;08;04;24 - 01;08;06;16
No, I hadn't thought about that.
01;08;06;16 - 01;08;08;11
And it's like, yeah, as as I said,
01;08;08;11 - 01;08;12;09
there's like a sadness to that being like,
oh, yes, of course.
01;08;12;09 - 01;08;13;27
Like they're just willing to do more
01;08;13;27 - 01;08;16;27
because that's
what society is sort of demanded.
01;08;17;09 - 01;08;17;29
But it's interesting.
01;08;17;29 - 01;08;19;29
I hadn't thought about it through that.
01;08;19;29 - 01;08;23;11
Clear as we as we start to wrap up
this conversation and we've covered,
01;08;23;15 - 01;08;26;00
you know, quite a lot of ground, it's
been, you know, really interesting
01;08;26;00 - 01;08;28;20
and insightful
to hear about your experience.
01;08;28;20 - 01;08;32;24
Any sort of final thoughts,
I guess, for any business
01;08;32;24 - 01;08;35;28
or tech leaders
who are listening to this and
01;08;37;02 - 01;08;39;26
having some of the struggles
or concerns that you had or are
01;08;39;26 - 01;08;41;09
interested in building,
01;08;41;09 - 01;08;44;16
I guess a more a better and more virtuous
culture in their organization.
01;08;44;16 - 01;08;45;06
What can they do?
01;08;46;10 - 01;08;47;12
Yeah, I mean, I think that,
01;08;47;12 - 01;08;50;21
you know, my dad reading the book is like
he was a small business owner,
01;08;50;21 - 01;08;51;29
and I think he was like,
01;08;51;29 - 01;08;55;18
you know, kind of like a how to, like,
kind of bust the unions, sort of like,
01;08;55;18 - 01;08;58;19
you know, the, the employees
and the organizers always like trying
01;08;58;19 - 01;09;02;07
to, like, you know, impede the innovation
and like, you know, we need kind of like,
01;09;02;29 - 01;09;04;03
you know, unfettered,
01;09;04;03 - 01;09;06;18
you know, an unfettered road
to just, like, do what we want to do.
01;09;06;18 - 01;09;09;18
And even as a small business owner
selling art supplies, it's really that,
01;09;09;19 - 01;09;14;09
and I think that I hope that leaders
and kind of like
01;09;14;16 - 01;09;17;26
acts and managers
will read the book and understand
01;09;17;26 - 01;09;20;04
the employee perspective as well,
and the kind of
01;09;20;04 - 01;09;21;25
some of the challenging natures of that.
01;09;21;25 - 01;09;23;29
I think interpersonal stuff
can be really messy.
01;09;23;29 - 01;09;26;25
It can be really hard to manage,
an employee who's outspoken,
01;09;27;29 - 01;09;29;24
but also there's a lot of heart in it.
01;09;29;24 - 01;09;33;22
And I think that, like, again, it's
like to me, it's sort of like a confident
01;09;33;22 - 01;09;36;22
leader would be able to,
01;09;37;05 - 01;09;40;25
absorb, not absorb,
but would be able to hear the concerns
01;09;40;25 - 01;09;43;11
and the fire and the anger of the walkout
01;09;43;11 - 01;09;47;08
and transmute that into something
that made the company better.
01;09;47;18 - 01;09;49;25
And there are
there are so many like, possible paths.
01;09;49;25 - 01;09;52;03
And I actually
because I've never run an organization,
01;09;52;03 - 01;09;53;28
I really don't know what those past
might have been.
01;09;53;28 - 01;09;56;23
And I think there's every now and again
a Google executive might all like,
01;09;56;23 - 01;09;59;25
let's sort of like riff on the,
you know, the complexities
01;09;59;25 - 01;10;01;18
that make it really hard
to be a leader there or whatever.
01;10;01;18 - 01;10;02;15
I welcome that.
01;10;02;15 - 01;10;06;16
But I think that like, you know,
my first person account
01;10;06;16 - 01;10;10;11
is definitely something that, you know,
is written for other people
01;10;10;11 - 01;10;11;28
who are experiencing
like the challenges of,
01;10;11;28 - 01;10;15;25
of corporate life in a very chaotic
world that we live in today.
01;10;17;05 - 01;10;18;06
It's for that person.
01;10;18;06 - 01;10;23;22
But I also hope that, you know, leaders
can can find lessons in it as well,
01;10;23;23 - 01;10;28;22
because I think that that, dissent
doesn't have to be threatening.
01;10;28;22 - 01;10;31;26
It can kind of be like what
Google used to say, which is that it is,
01;10;32;07 - 01;10;37;02
a hallmark of a healthy culture
that, you know, celebrates and welcomes
01;10;37;02 - 01;10;41;03
the insights and, and the accountability
that employees can offer.
01;10;41;03 - 01;10;42;17
I mean, if anything,
I think we can all agree
01;10;42;17 - 01;10;44;26
that the tech companies
don't have a lot of accountability.
01;10;44;26 - 01;10;47;26
You know, it's a really important role
that,
01;10;47;26 - 01;10;50;18
that workers can play
and that I think that managers can like,
01;10;50;18 - 01;10;54;00
try to like be a bit toughen up about,
you know, so,
01;10;54;13 - 01;10;57;01
you know,
I wonder, you know, where we're heading
01;10;57;01 - 01;11;00;03
with the kind of like,
employer employee relationship, but,
01;11;00;11 - 01;11;01;23
I'm sure there will be many other
01;11;01;23 - 01;11;04;28
iterations of it in our lifetime
as tech continues to be like,
01;11;05;17 - 01;11;08;28
you know, one of the major employers,
for our world.
01;11;08;28 - 01;11;09;27
Right. So.
01;11;09;27 - 01;11;14;06
And also emperors of our lives,
they're so tremendously powerful that,
01;11;15;08 - 01;11;17;17
you know, I think
it would it would behoove these companies
01;11;17;17 - 01;11;21;02
to try to dig in and reflect
and be better.
01;11;23;01 - 01;11;24;04
I think that's well said.
01;11;24;04 - 01;11;26;08
And I don't know, I'm
01;11;26;08 - 01;11;29;19
I don't know if I'm cautiously optimistic,
but at least I want to be.
01;11;29;19 - 01;11;31;24
And I can see that
future that you're building.
01;11;31;24 - 01;11;35;29
And yeah, I think we all kind of owe it
to ourselves and our,
01;11;36;17 - 01;11;39;17
you know, companies to try and build
that future.
01;11;39;19 - 01;11;39;26
Clear.
01;11;39;26 - 01;11;41;25
I wanted to say such a big
thank you for coming on today.
01;11;41;25 - 01;11;44;25
Really. Great. Was a pleasure.
01;11;44;25 - 01;11;46;13
Yeah. Yeah.
01;11;46;13 - 01;11;46;23
So, yeah.
01;11;46;23 - 01;11;49;04
Thank you. And,
Yeah. Look forward to reading the book.
01;11;49;04 - 01;11;52;03
Yeah. I.
01;11;52;17 - 01;11;56;03
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Our Guest Mehran Gul Discusses
There Is No AI Race. Inside the Trillion-Dollar Lie
From AI investment and venture capital to Silicon Valley, China, Europe, India, and the future of global innovation, this episode looks beyond the AI hype to ask a much bigger question: who will actually shape the next era of technology?
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Our Guest Bill Reichert Discusses
The AI Bubble Isn't the Dot-Com Bubble. It's Worse.
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Our Guest Hany Farid Discusses
AI Has Made Everything Worse | Hany Farid on the Internet's Truth Problem
Hany Farid, one of the world’s leading experts on deepfakes and digital forensics, joins us to explain why AI-generated content is pushing us toward a world where we can no longer trust what we see, hear, or even who we’re talking to online.
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Our Guest Claire Stapleton Discusses
Google Insider Reveals How Greed Killed Big Tech
Former Google communications leader, Google Walkout organizer, and Don’t Be Evil author Claire Stapleton reveals what happened inside Google as its celebrated culture of openness, employee empowerment, and idealism began to change.