Digital Disruption

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In those early years, it was sort of like,

there's nothing we can't solve together.

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And the bedrock of that is people.

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And also that I think that you see

the shift in that language now, today

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and the values because waves of layoffs,

the threat of, you know, AI

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replacing jobs.

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No one is saying from Google anymore

that people are the heart of what we do.

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If anything, it's sort of like,

prove that you're better than I. You know,

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it's just like all these companies

constantly threatening redundancy.

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So they're into their coders now.

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Things have really changed.

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This is a show about the future of tech

and the future of work.

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I'm Geoff Nielsen, and today

I'm talking with the author of Don't

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Be Evil, Clare Stapleton, a 12 year

vet of Google.

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Clare went from being a leader

of communications

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to an organizer of the Google walkout,

to leaving

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the organization completely,

not without acrimony.

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Clare had a front row

seat to what she called a loss

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of a moral compass in Big tech

and is telling the story in her new book.

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If Google were the only company

in the world to be accused

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of losing its moral compass,

I wouldn't be all that interested.

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But virtually every organization

I've ever worked with

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has had some version of this battle,

with their employees being somewhere

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between frustrated, too disheartened

to completely checked out.

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Few of us have fought the good fight

as courageously as Clare,

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so I want to know

what we can learn from her.

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Should we expect our employers to act

morally?

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What can we do

if we're seeing bad behavior?

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And how can we be a force for good

and build organizations that aren't evil?

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Let's find out.

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Clare, thanks so much for joining today.

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Super excited to have you.

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I wanted to,

I guess maybe start at the, the beginning.

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So, you know, you were

you were at Google an awfully long time,

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I think something like 12 years.

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And, you know, at the beginning, to me,

it's very much a story of,

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you know, you very much being,

you know, Team Google,

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you know, card carrying, flag waving,

you know, member of Team Google.

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And, you know, the story

kind of goes downhill from there.

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So I'm I'm curious from your perspective

to hear you tell it, like what happened.

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Yeah.

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I mean, that really

is the entire arc of the book.

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I, you know, I,

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I was hired straight out of college

through college recruiting,

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which is a very rare window of time

that they actually did that at the company

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had a huge hiring burst around 2007

when I was graduating from college.

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And, I was an English major,

and I got a job

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in the communications department,

which seemed like, okay,

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this is a good kind of corporate job

if you're a kind of humanities student.

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And I wasn't even

particularly interested in technology,

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but it was impossible

to not be sort of drawn into the lore

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around the company

at that particular moment.

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They were on the cover of,

you know, fortune, Best Places to Work.

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And, you know, they're all of this,

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you know, coverage of

of the kind of lavish, perks of the campus

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and the basic brief of the job was like

to become a corporate storyteller.

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So it's sort of like, where did my,

you know, genuine idealism and enthusiasm

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began

and the kind of, requirements of the job.

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And because it was sort of like they

wanted enthusiasm, they wanted idealism,

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they wanted people who could be kind of

passionate spokespeople for the company.

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And I thought, you know, hey,

I can do that.

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And, you know, it was, coming in,

going from college into this environment.

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It was quite intoxicating

because you're kind of being

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pumped with this rhetoric

about how special you are.

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I mean, there's, you know,

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from the first day of orientation,

they're saying, you know, we got,

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you know, 3000 applications a minute or,

you know, something,

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I don't know the exact stat something

kind of like hyperbolic.

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And you're the chosen one.

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And this is the golden ticket.

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You know, particularly as the, you know,

job market has, like, ebbed and flowed

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and the, you know, dot.com

the industry has gone

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through so many different iterations,

it did feel like,

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wow, we got the kind of like,

you know, captured seat here for this.

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Like, you know, amazing era of technology

that's dawning.

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I think that, you know,

sort of inherent to my role

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was, a sense of the mission

and the purpose of the company.

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So I think that we now everyone

sort of agrees that these big tech

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companies are very kind

of complicated institutional figures.

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And our, you know, governing our society,

and they feel more nefarious.

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But, you know, if you if you kind of

put yourself back in 2007, the,

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you know,

this is right before Obama was elected,

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it was like this moment of kind

of like American optimism.

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And tech companies are right, particularly

companies like Google or these like,

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amazing American Stories

that two guys in a garage, two geeky

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geniuses are going to come through and

kind of solve all the world's problems.

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So as I was going back

and writing the book,

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I was really interested to kind of

to track how the rhetoric of the company,

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kind of really thickened and evolved,

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you know, and the company,

culture was a really big part of that.

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It was a big part of what the company was

sort of, exporting.

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And anyway, so I, you know,

I spent a few years in Mountain View

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working closely with the founders

and a bunch of other executives

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on the whole, a great experience.

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And I sort of wanted to try something

else.

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Got a transfer to the New York office.

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And then that next seven years,

I guess, tracks, kind of slow.

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And then fast, disillusionment arc where,

you know, I had a really difficult time

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and, you know, just kind of normal,

difficult, toxic work experience.

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Still kind of caught in the lore

and mythology of the company

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because I was working at this in-house

creative agency called Creative Lab.

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It was a really tough experience.

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But then I, you know,

I moved over to YouTube marketing.

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YouTube was, like, hotter than hot.

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This is in the sort of like mid-aughts,

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but was coming kind of complex

and was really interesting place to work.

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Also, we were continuing to kind of like,

cheerlead about it and disseminate

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the values of the company

as a communications marketing person.

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And then, you know, I had a kid,

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my eye was starting to see things

in a kind of like a bit different way.

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And then

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Donald Trump was elected.

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There was a whole,

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a whole kind of uproar at the company

around a big scandal,

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a New York Times story about,

executive payouts for sexual harassment.

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Anyway, I ended up getting into labor

organizing and organized

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the Google walkout,

along with a great group of women and and,

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you can imagine my Google career

didn't last much longer after that.

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Yeah.

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So that's the basic gist of the book.

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It's really interesting.

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I mean, it's a crazy story with,

you know, so many chapters and it's funny.

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I mean, you kind of laid it out,

but it feels like it's almost an arc of

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American history

and like to got to go back

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to the period of the,

you know, the, the mid-aughts

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there's this sense that you're

talking about about Google.

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And I remember the period where they seem

to have this vision of, like

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this forward looking, very modern company

that had these values

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that transcended what you would

typically expect from a corporation.

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And, you know, that I think is some of

the idealism you were talking about.

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Can you add a little bit more color

to that?

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Like what what was the culture?

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What were some of those values that they

were espousing that felt so intoxicating?

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And and did you find

they were actually living at at that time?

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Yeah.

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I mean, I

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used to give the tours of the campus

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and the office design

was, was, was really the a bedrock of it

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because everything in that, moment

was a feverish rush to capture talent.

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So, you know, I'm like a comms person.

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People come in as community

or as customer service reps or something,

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as sort of like a service person.

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But everything was about serving engineers

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and rock star product talent. So,

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they had people very thoughtfully design

offices that would engineer collaboration.

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And that was the idea of the lunch table.

And people stick around for lunch.

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They're not wasting this time.

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Sure, it's a sort of a productivity

move as well.

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But, you know,

the office design was very open

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and flat to reflect that good ideas

come from anywhere.

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And, you know,

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anyone can come in and, you know, build

the next Gmail or whatever it was.

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So I think that the, you know,

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the culture was,

also very much about employee voice.

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And I worked on this weekly meeting, TGIF

with the hosted by the founders, where,

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yes, there'd be some sort of presentation

and they talk about the product

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updates of the week, but most of it was

a Q&A with employees, and I think it was,

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it felt sort of radical at the time

because people would line up and come

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with their questions and oftentime

the questions were very pointed

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or kind of critical about strategic

direction or a misstep or and it was,

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there was the sense

that the executives are so accessible

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and they're like peers

and maybe they'd even course correct.

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So I think that there's that

where they really wanted

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to empower the employees because they felt

like that's how they do their best work.

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And I think that, you know,

when Larry Page kind of cycled

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in and out of being the CEO over

the sort of early period of time,

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his second stint at this was

was when I was in the Commerce Department.

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He really believed that you need to get

the employees hopped up

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on the on the mission and the world

changing aspects of the company.

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And that's

what I think is like almost the most,

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bittersweet or have somber note for me

is that when I was looking back at

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everything he said in the sort of like

2000 period, 11 period was that, you know,

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Google could cure death

because we were so ambitious in our scope.

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We have all these talented people,

we have all these resources.

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We're faster

than the bureaucracy of the state.

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You know, we're not encumbered by, you

know, the complexity, which isn't true.

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I mean, the company was pretty complex

already, but, you know, we can,

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dramatically solve humanity's problems.

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And when you really look at it, I'm like,

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you know, it's not to say that

Google hasn't, you know, transformed

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the world in certain ways.

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But if you look at,

you know, search and YouTube

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and all these other, these other things,

it's like in a way, I think that,

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you know, tech has sort of,

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really contributed to the challenging,

polarized, unequal environment.

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You know, that we now

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look at society and think like, are things

any better than ten years ago?

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Feels it certainly feels worse.

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And a lot,

a lot of ways for a lot of people.

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While, you know, extreme

wealth has gotten, you know, concentrated

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sort of at the top of the company.

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So anyway, but in those early years,

it was sort of like,

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there's nothing we can't solve together.

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And, you know, at the bedrock of

that is people and also that I think

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that you see the shift in that language

now today and the values because,

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you know, waves of layoffs, the threat of,

you know, AI replacing jobs.

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No one is saying from Google anymore

that people are the heart of what we do.

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If anything, it's sort of like,

prove that you're better than I.

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You know, it's

just like all these companies,

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you know, constantly

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threatening redundancy,

to their, to their coders.

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Now, things have really changed,

but I think that the at the time,

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the kind of

I don't think it was insincere.

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I think that Larry and Sergey really did

feel that,

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Google can have this, like, you know,

transformative impact on society,

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not just to, like, create online ads, but,

you know, that it's it's

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this much more sweeping, contribution

to the world,

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that, you know, I don't know if people

can assess whether that's been borne out.

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And I would say it has its.

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So. So I'm really curious

and I find it so interesting.

00;11;30;21 - 00;11;34;24

You talk to us a little bit about,

I guess, what happened to Claire

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in that time

and what happened to America in that time.

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I'm still trying to sort out in my mind,

like what happened to Google.

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You know, there's this that there's

this age of almost like, mythologizing

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and this mission that, as you said it,

it seems like it was sincere coming from

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Larry and Sergei.

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Is it that they stepped back?

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Is it the company got too big,

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like what happened to Google

that's led to this slide.

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Do you have any like reflections on that.

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Well I do because you know what

Larry Page, this very brief

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period of time where he was the CEO,

he gave a few interviews.

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He's has like vocal paralysis.

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So it's sort of like

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he never really spoke in public

the same way after this, like one year.

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But he talked about how he was studying,

why companies fail or as a counterpoint,

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why companies become so

big and bloated and sclerotic

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that they stopped

innovating on the same level.

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And that's like such a kiss of death.

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And, you know, I think that

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he understood the risk of becoming,

you know, super corporate.

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And ultimately it seems like

that's completely played out.

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I think that, you know, my vantage point

being in the communications department

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was that

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the company went from this period of rapid

growth

00;12;45;28 - 00;12;49;09

and just, you know, making tons of money

and doing all these different things.

00;12;49;09 - 00;12;51;21

And it was, you know, so cool

and so exciting.

00;12;51;21 - 00;12;55;06

But then, you know, contrary

to their own kind of,

00;12;56;09 - 00;12;59;08

you know, values on paper about HR,

they ended up

00;12;59;26 - 00;13;03;16

hiring a ton of executives

or elevating people to kind of, you know,

00;13;03;16 - 00;13;07;10

manage these different sort of business

units, these different little fiefdoms.

00;13;08;16 - 00;13;12;29

I think that this, this age of executives

became a really complicated,

00;13;13;18 - 00;13;17;16

situation for the company because it,

it corporatized it in a, in a big way

00;13;17;16 - 00;13;18;06

because all of a sudden

00;13;18;06 - 00;13;20;11

you have people coming from the outside

that are kind of,

00;13;20;11 - 00;13;23;14

you know, there's people from Microsoft

or, you know, people who are kind

00;13;23;14 - 00;13;27;13

of used to competently running, you know,

really big teams, really big orgs

00;13;27;21 - 00;13;31;07

who might not, you know, believe in that

same sort of like freewheeling spirit,

00;13;31;07 - 00;13;33;26

but they have a different skill set

or something like that.

00;13;33;26 - 00;13;36;18

The communications became more formal.

00;13;36;18 - 00;13;38;18

The amount of trust

that you can have in the company,

00;13;38;18 - 00;13;43;18

the transparency isn't the same because people stake feels, you know, more tenuous.

00;13;45;13 - 00;13;45;23

Yeah.

00;13;45;23 - 00;13;48;23

I think that, you know, the company,

00;13;49;08 - 00;13;52;08

has been plagued by sort of,

00;13;53;00 - 00;13;54;21

lack of sort of central organization.

00;13;54;21 - 00;13;56;21

So there's I have an example in the book

00;13;56;21 - 00;13;59;28

that there were like five different teams

working on smartwatches at the same time.

00;13;59;28 - 00;14;03;05

Like, that's not only kind of

demoralizing, but it's inefficient.

00;14;03;05 - 00;14;06;04

And they've had, you know, many waves of,

00;14;06;04 - 00;14;07;12

Ruth Porat, who's the CFO.

00;14;07;12 - 00;14;09;15

When they brought her

in, they called her Ruthless Ruth

00;14;09;15 - 00;14;12;14

because she was trying to look

and see where all the bloat and the

00;14;12;17 - 00;14;13;27

and the waste was coming from.

00;14;13;27 - 00;14;17;26

So I could see that

as, Google moved into kind of first,

00;14;17;26 - 00;14;20;13

this age of executives,

then this age of branding,

00;14;20;13 - 00;14;22;23

where they just put

tons of money into marketing,

00;14;22;23 - 00;14;25;23

and now it was billion dollar budgets

for the marketing department.

00;14;25;29 - 00;14;30;03

And then on a much kind of smaller scale

note, in my last few years at YouTube,

00;14;31;08 - 00;14;32;11

I saw this.

00;14;32;11 - 00;14;34;25

My dad was a small business owner,

00;14;34;25 - 00;14;37;25

in Emeryville, California, in the Bay area

where I grew up.

00;14;38;00 - 00;14;41;11

And I would tell him

sometimes anecdotes about my manager,

00;14;41;11 - 00;14;43;11

who's someone who's been very successful

at Google.

00;14;43;11 - 00;14;45;06

You know, she's she's like,

00;14;45;06 - 00;14;47;27

you know, mid-level executive

in the marketing department for department

00;14;47;27 - 00;14;48;23

still there.

00;14;48;23 - 00;14;51;24

And I remember we were talking

about doing an event to promote

00;14;51;24 - 00;14;54;24

some, you know, YouTube show

we were working on. And,

00;14;55;10 - 00;14;56;13

you know, I,

00;14;56;13 - 00;14;59;02

I think I was trying to do some cost

saving or even saying,

00;14;59;02 - 00;15;00;21

I don't know

if we even need to do an event

00;15;00;21 - 00;15;02;11

if we're going to see the ROI from that.

00;15;02;11 - 00;15;05;26

And she was basically encouraging me

to continue on with this event.

00;15;05;26 - 00;15;08;20

And to spend the maximum,

you know, was allotted for it.

00;15;08;20 - 00;15;11;02

And she said, you know,

and I'll never forget it.

00;15;11;02 - 00;15;13;19

You don't get a gold star

for coming in under budget.

00;15;13;19 - 00;15;17;23

And the logic there was,

if you don't spend, then you can't ask

00;15;17;23 - 00;15;20;23

for, you know, you ask for bigger budgets,

you know, year in, year out.

00;15;20;23 - 00;15;22;22

And so what you have

with someone like that,

00;15;22;22 - 00;15;23;28

and I think it's

there's tons of people like

00;15;23;28 - 00;15;26;21

this is people who are really savvy

corporate game players.

00;15;26;21 - 00;15;30;06

And their priority

isn't the mission of the company and the,

00;15;30;07 - 00;15;33;06

you know, the end user and all these other

kind of idealistic things

00;15;33;06 - 00;15;35;14

that we kind of, you know,

we're always talking about obsessively.

00;15;35;14 - 00;15;39;15

In the early days,

her interest is, growing

00;15;39;15 - 00;15;43;22

her, influence in the or

growing her budget, growing her headcount.

00;15;44;27 - 00;15;45;17

She probably is,

00;15;45;17 - 00;15;48;17

you know, self-interested

monetarily out there, you know, get it?

00;15;48;19 - 00;15;53;03

And I think, you know, with, with culture

shift culture, organizational culture.

00;15;53;04 - 00;15;56;07

So organizational organizational

psychology is so complicated.

00;15;56;17 - 00;16;00;06

But I could see that very unfortunately,

Google has sort of lost its grip

00;16;00;15 - 00;16;03;19

on, you know, people

who are deeply invested

00;16;03;19 - 00;16;07;08

and in the company's success and instead

more invested in their success.

00;16;07;08 - 00;16;10;20

I'm sure, as Larry Page would say,

this is an inevitability

00;16;10;20 - 00;16;14;04

that you have to fight aggressively

as companies become so, so big.

00;16;14;29 - 00;16;19;19

And also the, you know, the mission of

the company is so big and so complicated.

00;16;19;19 - 00;16;22;04

And I, you know, when I would

when I joined the YouTube marketing team

00;16;22;04 - 00;16;25;16

and I would tell my husband, who's

an architect, about my job, it was like

00;16;26;18 - 00;16;27;28

there had also

00;16;27;28 - 00;16;29;16

Google had also undergone

00;16;29;16 - 00;16;32;15

kind of related to what I'm talking about,

the old manager, this bullshit jobs

00;16;32;15 - 00;16;34;19

ification

where I would describe what I'm doing.

00;16;34;19 - 00;16;38;00

Okay, you know, I run a team

that manages the social media presence

00;16;38;00 - 00;16;42;04

for YouTube and, you know, it's

not really tied to any particular goal.

00;16;42;04 - 00;16;44;21

It's like we're just supposed

to kind of drive positive sentiment.

00;16;44;21 - 00;16;45;23

And so he's been like an architect.

00;16;45;23 - 00;16;48;13

You know, you're building houses sort of

like brick by brick is very tangible.

00;16;48;13 - 00;16;48;27

And you'd be like,

00;16;48;27 - 00;16;53;02

I just don't really kind of understand

how this connects to like YouTube's

00;16;53;02 - 00;16;56;02

bottom line or any particular goal,

because our goals are kind of

00;16;56;05 - 00;16;56;28

just sort of like,

00;16;56;28 - 00;16;57;25

you know, we're going with the

00;16;57;25 - 00;17;00;27

with the wind and there's, you know,

a lot of discussion in the book about,

00;17;01;02 - 00;17;04;24

you know, how the social media channels

change with the political climate.

00;17;04;24 - 00;17;06;28

And, you know, we're now we're doing

liberal values now.

00;17;06;28 - 00;17;10;20

We're not, you know, this sort of thing

and, you know, but yet, like, you know,

00;17;10;20 - 00;17;13;05

he would say that I'd be like, it's

so true. Like, what even is this job?

00;17;13;05 - 00;17;15;16

And yet the, the budgets and the head

counts.

00;17;15;16 - 00;17;16;27

It's just got bigger and bigger

and bigger.

00;17;16;27 - 00;17;19;15

We had, you know, multiple agencies,

tons of people.

00;17;19;15 - 00;17;22;23

I mean, my boss, you know, had probably

had 30 people on her team by the end.

00;17;22;25 - 00;17;26;02

This is she was the person

overseeing the social media presence.

00;17;26;02 - 00;17;26;23

So you think,

00;17;26;23 - 00;17;28;27

all right,

I've seen maybe one times in YouTube's

00;17;28;27 - 00;17;31;05

Twitter account

or Instagram account or something.

00;17;31;05 - 00;17;31;22

Think about that.

00;17;31;22 - 00;17;35;22

30 people and then maybe 100 other people

at agencies who are working on it.

00;17;36;01 - 00;17;38;05

It's just tremendously wasteful.

00;17;38;05 - 00;17;41;21

It's, you know, it's really hard

from the outside

00;17;41;21 - 00;17;45;08

perspective to understand how the company

could justify that kind of money.

00;17;45;08 - 00;17;47;01

And, you know, it's like a jobs program.

00;17;47;01 - 00;17;48;00

It's like a jobs.

00;17;48;00 - 00;17;52;16

It's like, you know, it's like some sort

of like a big socialist product project.

00;17;52;16 - 00;17;56;01

But it's, you know, within the under

the guise of big corporate,

00;17;57;07 - 00;17;58;13

big corporate companies.

00;17;58;13 - 00;17;59;08

So anyway, that's.

00;17;59;08 - 00;18;00;22

Yeah, I think there's a lot of reasons

00;18;00;22 - 00;18;04;16

why the culture has shifted

in ways that make it like a bit, you know,

00;18;04;16 - 00;18;07;16

less desirable in every way

that it's been so quick.

00;18;08;12 - 00;18;08;25

Yeah.

00;18;08;25 - 00;18;11;25

And yeah,

the reason I ask is because it seems like

00;18;13;09 - 00;18;16;17

it's so obviously underwent

like a metamorphosis,

00;18;16;17 - 00;18;18;21

and it feels like it's

not unique to Google either. Right?

00;18;18;21 - 00;18;22;09

That there's all these stories of

you have companies that get too big

00;18;22;09 - 00;18;24;10

and suddenly they have money

and they don't know what to do with it,

00;18;24;10 - 00;18;27;12

and they do weird stuff

and they get corporatized.

00;18;27;12 - 00;18;30;21

And you have, you know,

it starts as being very people focused.

00;18;30;21 - 00;18;31;20

And you have, you know,

00;18;31;20 - 00;18;36;08

someone like Larry who's making

sure that it reflects their values.

00;18;36;08 - 00;18;39;23

And then, you know, as as they

step back a little bit, you lose that.

00;18;40;02 - 00;18;41;03

That North Star is.

00;18;41;03 - 00;18;42;05

So yeah, it's interesting.

00;18;42;05 - 00;18;44;21

And I want to talk more about that

through our conversation.

00;18;44;21 - 00;18;47;06

But I guess

just kind of playing the tape forward,

00;18;47;06 - 00;18;50;01

you know,

we end up a handful of years later

00;18;50;01 - 00;18;53;04

with the walkouts

and the events leading up to the walkouts.

00;18;53;14 - 00;18;57;01

And for, you know, listeners

who don't know, that involves some,

00;18;57;06 - 00;19;00;16

you know, fairly egregious,

sexual harassment payouts. But,

00;19;01;16 - 00;19;03;02

maybe,

Claire, you can tell us a little bit

00;19;03;02 - 00;19;06;12

about that, the lead up to it

and the walkouts themselves.

00;19;06;12 - 00;19;10;22

And like how,

I guess how you got involved with that.

00;19;11;15 - 00;19;11;25

Right?

00;19;11;25 - 00;19;12;23

I know it was,

00;19;12;23 - 00;19;15;28

you know, to have considered myself

kind of the ultimate corporate good girl

00;19;15;28 - 00;19;17;04

and then to be,

00;19;17;04 - 00;19;21;00

you know, leading the charge on this sort

of revolt was definitely a shocking turn.

00;19;21;00 - 00;19;22;17

Even,

00;19;22;17 - 00;19;25;04

even though I lived it, I'm like,

how did I end up doing that?

00;19;25;04 - 00;19;29;02

The you know, I think that the again, the,

00;19;29;15 - 00;19;32;29

the kind of cultural context driving,

you know, drives

00;19;32;29 - 00;19;36;22

so many, you know, forces and,

you know, rupture moments.

00;19;36;22 - 00;19;37;00

Right?

00;19;37;00 - 00;19;40;00

So you know, Trump had

00;19;40;09 - 00;19;43;01

come into power in 2016.

00;19;43;01 - 00;19;47;03

And so there were a lot of conversation,

you know, the MeToo movement, it was 2018,

00;19;48;00 - 00;19;48;21

began.

00;19;48;21 - 00;19;53;24

And, you know, there was a lot of,

you know, women feeling that

00;19;53;24 - 00;19;58;18

there was space available to talk about,

you know, kind of some of the, you know,

00;19;59;04 - 00;20;03;04

systemic cultural aspects of the way,

you know, the workplaces we've been in,

00;20;04;17 - 00;20;06;21

and just the the patriarchy in general.

00;20;06;21 - 00;20;08;15

Right. So,

00;20;08;15 - 00;20;12;28

I, I had had a baby, which was,

which was just personally

00;20;12;28 - 00;20;15;28

a very radical experience

as it, as it, as it can be.

00;20;17;00 - 00;20;19;26

And while I was on maternity leave,

00;20;19;26 - 00;20;23;02

there was this sort of all

this sort of MeToo stuff

00;20;23;02 - 00;20;27;07

kind of came home to roost at Google

because there was a, an engineer

00;20;27;07 - 00;20;30;08

named James Damore who sent around a memo.

00;20;30;08 - 00;20;32;07

There was a

there's a lots of mailing lists

00;20;32;07 - 00;20;35;07

and people, you know, kind of constantly

arguing things at Google.

00;20;35;15 - 00;20;37;16

It was a big part of the culture.

I don't think is.

00;20;37;16 - 00;20;40;19

But he there was a mailing list

00;20;40;19 - 00;20;43;19

that was for controversial takes,

and he wrote a big memo,

00;20;45;04 - 00;20;47;08

basically about how

00;20;47;08 - 00;20;52;03

women are biologically less suited

to engineering than men.

00;20;52;03 - 00;20;54;22

And it's actually been a huge disaster.

00;20;54;22 - 00;20;58;15

The Dei, you know, efforts

that Google had done to try to,

00;20;59;07 - 00;21;04;08

bring more women onto engineering teams

was counterproductive and a huge disaster.

00;21;04;08 - 00;21;06;00

You know, all these other things.

00;21;06;00 - 00;21;09;09

So I was sort of just like watching this

with fascination because in unearthed

00;21;09;09 - 00;21;14;09

this conversation about the

the lingering bro culture in the Valley,

00;21;14;17 - 00;21;17;11

which I think that

in some ways was was sort of

00;21;18;11 - 00;21;19;05

hard to see.

00;21;19;05 - 00;21;22;15

It's not like being in Wall Street

where someone's like slapping your butt

00;21;22;15 - 00;21;23;29

or something, you know, like in the 80s.

00;21;23;29 - 00;21;25;28

I think that,

00;21;25;28 - 00;21;28;27

you know, I think that, you know, the,

00;21;29;01 - 00;21;32;24

the kind of hacker, bro culture

of the Valley has always been there.

00;21;32;24 - 00;21;35;12

And there was a good, Emily

Chang book called bro.

00;21;35;12 - 00;21;38;20

Topia, which talks a little bit

about the sort of like startup culture,

00;21;39;10 - 00;21;41;29

and sexist, a kind of basic sexism,

I guess.

00;21;41;29 - 00;21;45;22

But, you know, it ended up

being this sort of interesting moment

00;21;45;22 - 00;21;49;22

where I think, women were starting to,

to chew on,

00;21;51;03 - 00;21;54;08

feeling that sort of sense

of discrimination or sense of like, I'm

00;21;54;08 - 00;21;58;07

a guy, hire all this and, you know,

and it was really interesting.

00;21;58;07 - 00;22;03;11

So then, you know, then, Brett Kavanaugh

was, confirmed to the Supreme Court

00;22;03;22 - 00;22;06;26

that fall that I was coming back

from maternity leave and,

00;22;07;24 - 00;22;11;08

was also another really interesting moment

of just talking about patriarchy

00;22;11;08 - 00;22;14;16

and sort of, you know, just

it was just a really interesting, meaty

00;22;14;16 - 00;22;15;11

cultural conversation.

00;22;15;11 - 00;22;19;28

So, the women at Google,

I think, were engaged in a way,

00;22;20;10 - 00;22;22;00

that, you know,

because usually as a Googler,

00;22;22;00 - 00;22;23;23

you're like, I'm

so grateful and happy to be here.

00;22;23;23 - 00;22;26;10

I'm like, you know, making good money

and what a wonderful company.

00;22;26;10 - 00;22;29;07

And you know, they support, you know,

the whole person and all that. Right.

00;22;30;14 - 00;22;32;24

So it's really hard because

I think there's a lot of sense of like,

00;22;32;24 - 00;22;34;19

you know, who are you to, you know,

00;22;34;19 - 00;22;37;20

people are getting like raped around,

you know, like there's so much like either

00;22;37;22 - 00;22;41;17

there's the women face

or and people of color face, you know,

00;22;42;01 - 00;22;45;13

so much there's so many difficult,

you know, experiences around the world.

00;22;45;13 - 00;22;46;06

We're so privileged.

00;22;46;06 - 00;22;48;14

How can we possibly complain

as sort of you know, a little bit

00;22;48;14 - 00;22;50;14

the attitude of of women at Google,

I think.

00;22;50;14 - 00;22;54;02

But all this is to say,

there was a big New York Times, exposé

00;22;54;19 - 00;22;58;27

of, a man named Andy Rubin who we all knew

well was like a really big,

00;22;58;27 - 00;22;59;18

you know, basically

00;22;59;18 - 00;23;02;20

like second only to Larry and Sergey

as a kind of celebrity of the company.

00;23;03;11 - 00;23;07;11

And he had, been investigated for,

00;23;07;29 - 00;23;10;18

improper relations

with subordinates on the team.

00;23;10;18 - 00;23;13;18

I guess you could say there's sort

of, like, some very salacious details,

00;23;14;14 - 00;23;15;12

and inappropriate.

00;23;15;12 - 00;23;15;20

It was.

00;23;15;20 - 00;23;19;02

It was largely like, very,

inappropriate behavior.

00;23;19;10 - 00;23;22;11

For someone running a team

and running a huge org.

00;23;22;11 - 00;23;25;13

And Google had investigated these, claims

00;23;25;13 - 00;23;29;17

and basically decided

to get him out of the company.

00;23;30;11 - 00;23;32;00

But he got a $90 million payout.

00;23;32;00 - 00;23;35;00

So, of course, this is

probably was like he created androids.

00;23;35;00 - 00;23;38;10

It it's probably like contractual,

you know, like they get paying him

00;23;38;10 - 00;23;41;24

some percentage of what Android was worth,

you know, and you know, all this.

00;23;41;24 - 00;23;45;11

But there there were a few other examples

in this New York Times story,

00;23;45;17 - 00;23;48;17

including of David Drummond, who was the,

00;23;48;23 - 00;23;52;14

chief legal officer having,

actually having a baby

00;23;52;15 - 00;23;55;16

with with someone who was like an admin

on his administrative team.

00;23;56;06 - 00;23;59;00

And she was sort of shuttled

out of the company with nothing,

00;23;59;00 - 00;24;02;10

and, you know, anyway,

so it created the perfect,

00;24;02;10 - 00;24;06;08

you know, image in a already charged

time for women at the company.

00;24;07;16 - 00;24;08;25

That look at the

00;24;08;25 - 00;24;12;02

optics here that, you know, a man abuses

his power,

00;24;12;17 - 00;24;16;14

gets a hero's farewell, gets, you know,

Andy Rubin is getting paid like, you know,

00;24;16;25 - 00;24;19;16

$2 million a month

for for many years or whatever.

00;24;19;16 - 00;24;20;20

Some crazy thing.

00;24;20;20 - 00;24;23;25

And, you know, and meanwhile,

these women who are kind

00;24;23;25 - 00;24;26;25

of, like,

discarded by this side of the road,

00;24;27;04 - 00;24;30;04

who are, you know, the victims of these

sort of like, men in power.

00;24;30;29 - 00;24;34;29

And, you know, it's just it just

I think it kind of it summed up it was it

00;24;34;29 - 00;24;38;25

was it was like the, you know, the match

that let the powder keg sort of moment.

00;24;38;25 - 00;24;43;07

So I was just coming back from maternity

leave had been following had been,

00;24;43;09 - 00;24;44;17

you know, I love a listserv.

00;24;44;17 - 00;24;47;10

So I was, you know, big on the moms group,

you know, it's an anonymous group.

00;24;47;10 - 00;24;51;07

But I was just really interested,

to see people's reactions to this.

00;24;51;07 - 00;24;53;09

And, you know,

I think people were kind of chiming in

00;24;53;09 - 00;24;54;13

with their sort of like, MeToo

00;24;54;13 - 00;24;57;29

stories, and people started to talk about,

you know, what we might do.

00;24;58;14 - 00;25;02;10

You know, send a letter to the CEO,

maybe we should all get together

00;25;02;10 - 00;25;05;17

and go to the TGIF and,

you know, show a united front about,

00;25;06;15 - 00;25;07;23

you know, how angry we are.

00;25;07;23 - 00;25;11;03

And I think because I've been so deep

in the bones of the communications,

00;25;11;03 - 00;25;14;24

the internal communications,

and knew how, insufficient

00;25;14;24 - 00;25;19;18

they were for accountability

at that point in the companies, lifespan,

00;25;20;20 - 00;25;23;12

as well as just like the moment, you know,

it's like it just felt like

00;25;23;12 - 00;25;27;02

we should do something a bit,

something bigger to log and register.

00;25;27;19 - 00;25;30;06

Our discontent,

you know, maybe something public facing.

00;25;30;06 - 00;25;31;25

We're gonna walk out.

00;25;31;25 - 00;25;35;21

And so I, you know, I think that I

it was like I had just hit this point

00;25;35;21 - 00;25;39;20

of being sort of like, personally

and professionally frustrated

00;25;39;20 - 00;25;44;09

and kind of fed up

with aspects of my, management and the way

00;25;44;09 - 00;25;46;16

I'd been treated after maternity leave

and all these other things.

00;25;46;16 - 00;25;49;07

And I just thought, you know,

I have good name recognition

00;25;49;07 - 00;25;51;29

within the company

from my days in communications.

00;25;51;29 - 00;25;55;04

I'm happy I, I'm never going to get fired

or dinged for this.

00;25;55;04 - 00;25;58;26

And I think that the, you know, it's

it's it's, it's it's about time that,

00;25;58;26 - 00;25;59;19

you know, we

00;26;00;23 - 00;26;03;16

that we,

you know, make a statement to management

00;26;03;16 - 00;26;06;16

about how this isn't okay,

these systemic issues are not okay. So,

00;26;06;29 - 00;26;09;15

I just sort of said I can help

put my name on it.

00;26;09;15 - 00;26;10;23

And planet,

00;26;10;23 - 00;26;14;09

some wonderful people came to the fold

and we had this, you know, whole group

00;26;14;09 - 00;26;15;12

that was working on it

00;26;15;12 - 00;26;17;08

and it and we thought

we even got a couple hundred

00;26;17;08 - 00;26;19;20

people maybe in Mountain View,

maybe in New York.

00;26;19;20 - 00;26;22;20

But one really kind of sobering

aspect of it was that

00;26;23;09 - 00;26;24;27

it seemed to take off so quickly.

00;26;24;27 - 00;26;26;08

We planned it within a week.

00;26;26;08 - 00;26;28;15

Then the protest happened.

00;26;28;15 - 00;26;31;03

And I was like,

what is what is happening here?

00;26;31;03 - 00;26;33;22

Because I know, you know,

some women are frustrated and,

00;26;33;22 - 00;26;37;22

you know, there's there's women who've,

you know, experienced really bad things

00;26;38;00 - 00;26;40;22

worse than what I'm talking about, with,

you know, my own

00;26;40;22 - 00;26;44;21

feeling of like, opportunity

discrimination or whatever, and I

00;26;44;21 - 00;26;48;19

so I, I sent out a, a Google form saying,

why are you walking out?

00;26;48;19 - 00;26;52;03

You know, what is why are you compelled

to, you know, kind of step out of line?

00;26;52;03 - 00;26;54;13

You know, we're all kind of like

good girls, you know, like high achievers.

00;26;54;13 - 00;26;55;16

You're our Google.

00;26;55;16 - 00;27;00;12

And I got the 350 stories

back, or 350 responses back.

00;27;00;12 - 00;27;04;21

And a lot of them were these

egregious stories of just like, you know,

00;27;04;26 - 00;27;08;01

I had just I just said that, you know,

like, oh, we think we're so privileged.

00;27;08;01 - 00;27;10;04

You know,

no one's like slapping our but like,

00;27;10;04 - 00;27;12;02

they would on Wall Street or something.

There's tons of that.

00;27;12;02 - 00;27;15;15

There's tons of, you know, inappropriate

remarks, just, you know,

00;27;15;25 - 00;27;19;09

casual sexism did horrible experiences.

00;27;19;09 - 00;27;19;24

People had,

00;27;19;24 - 00;27;23;19

you know, coming back from maternity

leave, having their products given away.

00;27;24;18 - 00;27;26;00

You know,

00;27;26;00 - 00;27;28;21

these things that you'd think

there would be not just,

00;27;28;21 - 00;27;31;01

you know, the basic labor protections

that you didn't get.

00;27;31;01 - 00;27;32;19

Treat this way, treated this way at work

00;27;32;19 - 00;27;35;19

just because of your gender

or the color of your skin.

00;27;35;24 - 00;27;39;23

But especially at Google, which,

you know, foisted by its own petard here

00;27;40;00 - 00;27;43;18

always said it was like the kind of

progressive workplace of the future that,

00;27;44;19 - 00;27;48;28

you know, we treat people,

you know, kind of better than, you know,

00;27;48;29 - 00;27;52;23

we workers are the center of, you know,

and the lifeblood of this place.

00;27;52;23 - 00;27;53;20

And and we wouldn't want,

00;27;53;20 - 00;27;57;01

you know, all these sort of like HR checks

and balances to kind of, you know,

00;27;57;16 - 00;28;00;05

theoretically prevent people

from feeling like

00;28;00;05 - 00;28;04;05

things are completely, you know, unfair,

sexist, racist and all this.

00;28;04;05 - 00;28;07;05

And so I was really shocked

that, like, under the cover of darkness,

00;28;07;20 - 00;28;09;17

there was still so much of this going on.

00;28;09;17 - 00;28;12;10

Google's response

was also kind of interesting and telling

00;28;12;10 - 00;28;15;04

where, you know, the head of HR was like,

yeah, it's inevitable.

00;28;15;04 - 00;28;16;28

You know,

you have a company of 90,000 people.

00;28;16;28 - 00;28;18;28

There's going

to be like sexual harassment.

00;28;20;02 - 00;28;20;28

It just didn't meet the

00;28;20;28 - 00;28;23;28

moment, you know,

and it kind of like continued to

00;28;25;11 - 00;28;27;19

it kind of that what was, you know,

00;28;27;19 - 00;28;31;14

this kind of pure expression

of just anger and rage in that moment

00;28;32;01 - 00;28;35;23

became quickly

a kind of operation to kind of continue

00;28;35;23 - 00;28;37;24

to push the company

to make changes in these ways.

00;28;37;24 - 00;28;40;13

We had demands. We kind of,

you know, following up on them.

00;28;40;13 - 00;28;43;15

And Google was like,

okay, you blow off steam, we're good.

00;28;43;15 - 00;28;45;00

Let's move on here.

00;28;45;00 - 00;28;47;17

We got it. Don't call us. We'll call you.

00;28;47;17 - 00;28;48;19

And yeah.

00;28;48;19 - 00;28;51;16

So yeah, they they ended up, yeah.

00;28;51;16 - 00;28;55;05

Not not loving the ongoing

organizing at the time.

00;28;55;15 - 00;28;56;09

Yeah.

00;28;56;09 - 00;28;57;17

And they clamped down on it really hard.

00;28;57;17 - 00;28;59;20

So that's. Yeah.

00;28;59;20 - 00;29;01;26

Well,

well tell me about the clampdown because,

00;29;01;26 - 00;29;04;26

you know, from,

from my very distant point of view,

00;29;05;12 - 00;29;08;18

what I saw was like the,

the sort of tacit leadership like,

00;29;08;18 - 00;29;11;25

oh, yes, we support you,

but please go away or something like that.

00;29;11;25 - 00;29;15;22

Like it was like it was

it seemed like it was like head nodding,

00;29;15;22 - 00;29;19;24

but yeah, like whatever

the opposite of commitment to action

00;29;19;24 - 00;29;23;24

is like like basically, yes, we hear you,

but we're not willing to make any sort of

00;29;23;24 - 00;29;25;06

system level changes. So.

00;29;25;06 - 00;29;27;11

So tell me about the clampdown

and tell me what you know,

00;29;27;11 - 00;29;29;07

what happened next from your perspective?

00;29;29;07 - 00;29;32;26

Well, I just to first mention that the,

you know, the company

00;29;32;26 - 00;29;36;09

initially took, if you can't beat them,

join, sort of, attitude.

00;29;36;09 - 00;29;40;03

So when the walkout was getting planned,

they, the CEO of the company

00;29;40;03 - 00;29;41;19

sent out an email saying,

00;29;41;19 - 00;29;45;06

I understand this is happening and,

you know, you're welcome to walk out.

00;29;45;06 - 00;29;46;02

It was just so weird.

00;29;46;02 - 00;29;48;17

But it was good

publicity for the event, I guess.

00;29;49;28 - 00;29;53;15

And then the CFO of the company

was at a Wall Street

00;29;53;15 - 00;29;56;23

Journal conference that week,

and she was like, I walked out myself.

00;29;56;23 - 00;30;00;03

And, you know, this is, you know, here

we have Googlers doing what Googlers do.

00;30;00;03 - 00;30;02;20

Well, you know, we're going to solve

all these problems together.

00;30;02;20 - 00;30;04;11

And like sexual harassment, yet

another problem

00;30;04;11 - 00;30;07;11

that Google can solve, you know,

which is crazy.

00;30;08;03 - 00;30;10;11

But so it was sort of like hunky dory.

00;30;10;11 - 00;30;14;10

And as an organizer, I was invited to go

do a meeting with the female

00;30;14;16 - 00;30;18;08

top female executives

like Susan Wojcicki and Ruth CFO and,

00;30;19;29 - 00;30;21;22

you know,

00;30;21;22 - 00;30;24;09

but the cozy, the coziness was,

00;30;24;09 - 00;30;27;09

you know, dissipated almost immediately.

00;30;27;20 - 00;30;30;25

They did a, you know, an all hands

where they said, here's our, you know,

00;30;30;25 - 00;30;33;02

kind of like internal site

where we're going to, like,

00;30;33;02 - 00;30;35;12

make progress on these demands,

but they never commit, you know,

00;30;35;12 - 00;30;39;10

other than they got rid of forced

arbitration, which was a big deal.

00;30;40;11 - 00;30;43;11

They, they didn't really

do any of the things, but some of them,

00;30;43;11 - 00;30;44;24

some of the things we were demanding

00;30;44;24 - 00;30;47;24

were quite like existential in nature,

like commit to like,

00;30;48;23 - 00;30;50;23

correcting pay and equity

and things like this.

00;30;50;23 - 00;30;53;02

But, you know,

it was a lot of lip service,

00;30;53;02 - 00;30;55;17

I think, though, what really kind of,

00;30;55;17 - 00;30;58;09

amplified the walkout

was that there was a big shareholder

00;30;58;09 - 00;31;01;14

lawsuit which said that the way

that Google had handled,

00;31;01;16 - 00;31;04;08

you know, these high profile cases was,

you know, doing damage to the company.

00;31;04;08 - 00;31;07;08

And so there was a big settlement,

00;31;08;03 - 00;31;08;28

with the women, company.

00;31;08;28 - 00;31;11;28

However, the, the,

00;31;12;12 - 00;31;15;09

the company made very quick work to.

00;31;15;09 - 00;31;15;20

Make.

00;31;15;20 - 00;31;19;24

It my belief, isolate

the women who are working on this stuff,

00;31;21;14 - 00;31;23;17

within their teams.

00;31;23;17 - 00;31;26;26

You know, in my case, you know, I was

I feel very much that I was sort of, like,

00;31;26;26 - 00;31;30;11

pushed off of my team,

but at the same time, they made internal

00;31;30;11 - 00;31;33;11

policy changes, including,

00;31;33;22 - 00;31;37;16

talk about a shift from the, you know,

open, transparent Google culture.

00;31;37;24 - 00;31;40;25

They very quickly

sent around an email saying that,

00;31;41;25 - 00;31;44;24

now there are penalties for,

00;31;44;24 - 00;31;48;26

accessing need to know documents

if you, if you don't have access, if,

00;31;48;28 - 00;31;51;15

you know, aren't supposed to be

looking at these things, which is it

00;31;51;15 - 00;31;53;03

was sort of like ambiguous,

how would you know?

00;31;53;03 - 00;31;54;18

What if the company was like

00;31;54;18 - 00;31;58;13

all, documents were publicly viewable

by default, and all these other things

00;31;58;13 - 00;32;00;15

that were kind of hallmarks

of the culture.

00;32;00;15 - 00;32;04;12

They ended up firing a group of people

after I had already left.

00;32;04;12 - 00;32;07;24

But, someone was just for,

looking on calendars.

00;32;07;24 - 00;32;12;02

This guy had looked on, HR calendars

and spotted that they were

00;32;12;02 - 00;32;15;13

that someone H.R was meeting with

this kind of famous union busting firm.

00;32;15;13 - 00;32;18;13

And, you know,

people were getting Ahold of,

00;32;18;18 - 00;32;21;18

documents

that showed that Google was, basically

00;32;21;23 - 00;32;26;04

trying to run a psychological operation

to, quell the threat of organizing

00;32;26;13 - 00;32;27;13

the threat of unionism.

00;32;28;14 - 00;32;31;06

And. Yeah, so I think that and, you know,

00;32;31;06 - 00;32;36;06

when people get fired for for stuff

that's confusing like that,

00;32;36;11 - 00;32;40;15

which is, you know, what it was very

there was someone who also put a,

00;32;41;20 - 00;32;44;14

like, a pop up on all Linux machines

00;32;44;14 - 00;32;46;06

that said, like,

organizing is a protected right.

00;32;46;06 - 00;32;47;22

You know, these things,

that person got fired.

00;32;47;22 - 00;32;50;20

So, basically,

you know, that's very chilling.

00;32;50;20 - 00;32;52;22

I mean, the chilling effects of that, it's

it's it's,

00;32;52;22 - 00;32;56;02

you know, you go it's a complete

about-face from this is we have Googlers

00;32;56;02 - 00;32;59;02

doing Googlers do well all the way to

00;32;59;06 - 00;32;59;17

yeah.

00;32;59;17 - 00;33;01;26

You you you saw something on a calendar.

00;33;01;26 - 00;33;03;05

We don't like that you're gone. So.

00;33;03;05 - 00;33;04;12

And yeah.

00;33;04;12 - 00;33;07;12

There I think that the and then that

00;33;07;12 - 00;33;10;23

the shot chaser there was that

the tech industry started doing layoffs.

00;33;10;23 - 00;33;15;21

So, you know, the

the walkout came was born of a time

00;33;15;28 - 00;33;20;16

where, workers did feel, ironically

enough, psychologically safe.

00;33;20;16 - 00;33;23;03

Here's me saying,

I've been at this company forever.

00;33;23;03 - 00;33;26;01

They're not gonna they're never gonna

get rid of me for this.

00;33;26;01 - 00;33;30;00

Because, you know, I'm holding

Google to its own data, stated values.

00;33;30;00 - 00;33;33;00

So even if they don't like that

this is a protest, it's sort of bad

00;33;33;00 - 00;33;36;28

PR for it's drawing more attention to this

sort of like corporate malfeasance.

00;33;39;05 - 00;33;40;11

Even so,

00;33;40;11 - 00;33;43;27

they're going to have to live with that

because the culture is durable enough

00;33;43;27 - 00;33;46;10

to absorb these voices and all the,

you know, the

00;33;46;10 - 00;33;49;24

the company's not so insecure

that they would punish people for,

00;33;50;13 - 00;33;53;18

for speaking out against things that

they deserve to be held accountable for.

00;33;54;13 - 00;33;57;05

But how wrong I was,

because I think that, you know,

00;33;57;05 - 00;34;00;22

even though I think that all the pretty

much all the women from the walkout,

00;34;02;10 - 00;34;05;00

left like pretty dramatically and,

you know, in public ways.

00;34;05;00 - 00;34;08;05

And I thought that, you know, if anything,

the optics of that will look so bad

00;34;08;05 - 00;34;12;01

for this company that I know so care

so much about being seen as

00;34;12;16 - 00;34;13;24

inclusive and progressive.

00;34;13;24 - 00;34;15;20

And but anyway, they still did.

00;34;15;20 - 00;34;19;25

And, you know, like when I was kind of

finishing up the book last summer,

00;34;19;25 - 00;34;24;00

I went and saw that the women who were,

you know, the head of my department,

00;34;24;00 - 00;34;27;23

you know, marketing at YouTube

as well, ended up going on

00;34;27;23 - 00;34;29;12

kind of like a road show

and putting out op

00;34;29;12 - 00;34;33;04

eds the year two after I, you know, I left

and all this sort of fracas

00;34;33;05 - 00;34;37;10

at Google about, you know, that

pontificating about how to build diverse

00;34;37;10 - 00;34;40;10

and inclusive teams

that, you know, like how people flourish.

00;34;40;10 - 00;34;43;22

I'm just like, can nobody see this through

this ridiculousness

00;34;43;22 - 00;34;46;25

that they, you know, ended up kind of,

00;34;47;16 - 00;34;51;01

you know, that's not, not, not the biggest

selling point for your inclusive team

00;34;51;01 - 00;34;55;04

that you ended up, pushing out

the people that dared to question,

00;34;56;09 - 00;34;57;26

question leadership.

00;34;57;26 - 00;35;00;29

You know, particularly when we were hired

on the back of that sort of promise.

00;35;00;29 - 00;35;04;08

But, yeah, that was so

that was the kind of like quick shift

00;35;04;08 - 00;35;07;02

that they were able to make.

And the chilling effects remain.

00;35;07;02 - 00;35;10;15

I don't think that organizing exists,

that these tech companies near

00;35;10;15 - 00;35;14;03

on the level of the kind of promise

of that particular moment.

00;35;16;21 - 00;35;17;06

When I hear

00;35;17;06 - 00;35;20;06

you talk about that period of time

and about the walkouts,

00;35;20;06 - 00;35;23;06

it's interesting, Claire, and

and tell me if you disagree, but I,

00;35;23;13 - 00;35;26;07

I, I sense like a sense of reflection

in you.

00;35;26;07 - 00;35;30;17

Like, it seems like you're like,

oh, how how idealistic I was

00;35;30;17 - 00;35;34;04

and and what a time that was that

things like that were happening.

00;35;34;04 - 00;35;38;21

And I'm curious, you know, having had

the chance now to sort of reflect on it,

00;35;39;00 - 00;35;42;10

you know, what you make of it

now, you know, would you do it again?

00;35;42;10 - 00;35;44;04

Would you have done something differently?

00;35;44;04 - 00;35;47;19

Do you see it as,

you know, being a force for good or,

00;35;48;29 - 00;35;51;23

you know,

just more of a product of its time?

00;35;51;23 - 00;35;54;23

Well, you know, I think it,

00;35;55;18 - 00;35;56;22

you know,

00;35;56;22 - 00;35;59;22

my naivete at that time

00;35;59;27 - 00;36;03;26

was something that I like,

feel like is very precious because, like,

00;36;03;26 - 00;36;06;25

even when I went to

when I started experiencing this sort of,

00;36;06;25 - 00;36;07;10

like,

00;36;07;10 - 00;36;10;03

changing in my roles and responsibilities,

and I'm starting to kind of

00;36;10;03 - 00;36;13;04

get isolated from the, you know,

the main work that I've been doing,

00;36;14;19 - 00;36;17;05

I was like, oh, surely if I go to HR,

they'll fix this.

00;36;17;05 - 00;36;21;24

I mean, it's crazy because I already I was

surrounded by people who either were,

00;36;22;17 - 00;36;26;10

more kind of savvy labor organizers

or people who were just never had

00;36;26;10 - 00;36;30;07

the same trust in authority that I did,

or the kind of deference to authority.

00;36;30;07 - 00;36;31;29

And I think that and I like,

00;36;31;29 - 00;36;35;04

you know, it may surprise people

reading the book that I actually spent

00;36;35;04 - 00;36;39;13

a bit of time talking about how,

like the how I was formed

00;36;39;24 - 00;36;42;29

such that going to Google, I got so bought

in, I was kind of interested

00;36;42;29 - 00;36;46;06

to kind of like, lightly psychoanalyze,

like, you know, it's a Catholic school.

00;36;46;06 - 00;36;48;00

I, you know, was a good student.

00;36;48;00 - 00;36;50;14

All these sort of like, basic

things that make someone,

00;36;50;14 - 00;36;53;03

you know, perhaps you could

say the word susceptible to,

00;36;54;06 - 00;36;55;19

to getting kind of drawn in

00;36;55;19 - 00;36;59;03

to the kind of like the corporate, B.S.,

you know, or whatever.

00;37;00;05 - 00;37;03;20

Or get into, get drawn into the story

and not necessarily be able to separate.

00;37;03;20 - 00;37;06;06

Okay. I have here

my values here and my sense of judgment.

00;37;06;06 - 00;37;09;06

I'm just going to trust what versus

I'll just trust what leadership says.

00;37;10;11 - 00;37;15;03

So, yeah, I think that I completely

understand the person that I was.

00;37;15;03 - 00;37;16;09

I was I was like kind of like

00;37;16;09 - 00;37;19;23

starting to have this awakening

and like a new kind of like righteousness.

00;37;19;23 - 00;37;23;14

And it feels to me

very pure, like it was like, you know,

00;37;23;19 - 00;37;26;28

it just was honestly like I was

there was this like, ice moment.

00;37;26;28 - 00;37;29;28

And I was feeling

kind of passionate and hot, you know?

00;37;29;28 - 00;37;32;09

So it's sort of like that

just happened. I think that,

00;37;33;21 - 00;37;34;00

yeah.

00;37;34;00 - 00;37;37;00

Whereas I think that a lot of the other

organizers would be like,

00;37;37;10 - 00;37;40;07

you need to like, do complete,

00;37;40;07 - 00;37;42;29

you know, operation security

and like get a separate phone

00;37;42;29 - 00;37;45;02

and you can't use any Google products

for things and all this other stuff

00;37;45;02 - 00;37;47;04

that I was just like, again, I was like,

you know,

00;37;47;04 - 00;37;49;17

like Google is never going to like,

punish us for this, right?

00;37;49;17 - 00;37;51;03

You know,

00;37;51;03 - 00;37;53;15

what I do,

I think that, you know, now, knowing what

00;37;53;15 - 00;37;56;15

I know that,

00;37;56;23 - 00;37;58;09

people who strive

00;37;58;09 - 00;38;02;11

to make change, it usually doesn't go

well for them, right?

00;38;02;11 - 00;38;03;10

In a short term way.

00;38;03;10 - 00;38;07;09

It's not like you can necessarily say, oh,

Google, walk out like transformed Google

00;38;07;09 - 00;38;09;13

and there's sexism is gone,

you know, or something.

00;38;09;13 - 00;38;12;22

Or Google is like never going

to have executives who abuse power.

00;38;12;22 - 00;38;16;20

I mean, you know, that said, I think it,

00;38;18;01 - 00;38;20;14

it was part of this bigger culture.

00;38;20;14 - 00;38;24;29

But it also catalyzed a conversation,

I think, within people,

00;38;24;29 - 00;38;27;29

very much like an older version of myself

where,

00;38;28;03 - 00;38;30;26

you know, someone,

it was out in plain air.

00;38;30;26 - 00;38;31;16

What's the delta

00;38;31;16 - 00;38;34;21

between how Google describes itself

and these sort of like values on paper,

00;38;34;21 - 00;38;38;27

and how a big company

that's a big kind of machine is the system

00;38;38;27 - 00;38;42;14

and how it actually operates,

and the kind of humanity and authenticity.

00;38;42;14 - 00;38;45;27

And, you know, I think it's

tremendously healthy for people to, like,

00;38;45;27 - 00;38;49;17

not be so obsessed with their company

is like going to change the world.

00;38;49;17 - 00;38;52;17

And it's a unicorn magical place

like all this other stuff that

00;38;52;18 - 00;38;54;27

whether or not

I was completely sold in on that,

00;38;54;27 - 00;38;56;22

you know,

that was more the direction that I was in.

00;38;56;22 - 00;38;59;17

I think that, you know,

it was a really powerful,

00;39;00;19 - 00;39;03;06

moment

for me to kind of like learn and grow.

00;39;03;06 - 00;39;06;16

And it was so shocking to be like kind of

pushed out the company on the other end.

00;39;06;16 - 00;39;07;10

And I'm just like, oh my God.

00;39;07;10 - 00;39;09;20

Because at the end of the book,

you know, like pregnant.

00;39;09;20 - 00;39;11;22

And I'm like, you know, that's

00;39;11;22 - 00;39;15;19

it was a really kind of weird situation

for me to be like, wait a minute.

00;39;15;19 - 00;39;15;24

What?

00;39;15;24 - 00;39;18;24

Like, how did that, like, just go

so spectacularly wrong?

00;39;19;22 - 00;39;21;10

But, you know, I think that

00;39;21;10 - 00;39;24;10

the kind of silver lining of it is that,

00;39;25;02 - 00;39;28;08

you know, it forced me to kind of

have a bit more agency over my own life.

00;39;28;08 - 00;39;32;12

It's a little bit the message of the book

that, you know, you know, buyer beware.

00;39;32;12 - 00;39;36;17

If you wholesale import

a corporation's worldview and,

00;39;36;17 - 00;39;39;29

you know, kind of hit your wagon,

I guess, for, for a lack of a better way

00;39;39;29 - 00;39;42;22

to put it, if you hit your wagon

so hard to one place,

00;39;42;22 - 00;39;44;10

I feel like there are many times

where I might have left

00;39;44;10 - 00;39;47;26

Google in the book

because I was sort of like, so unhappy or,

00;39;48;09 - 00;39;51;22

you know, dissatisfied, bored or whatever,

but it was like unfathomable

00;39;51;22 - 00;39;56;25

because my, identity, for various reasons,

had become so fuzed with the company.

00;39;56;25 - 00;39;59;28

And then, you know,

we kind of broke up like someone said,

00;40;01;00 - 00;40;03;23

have a friend who left Google was saying

that they,

00;40;03;23 - 00;40;07;20

after they left Google, were served

a Spotify playlist about breakups.

00;40;07;20 - 00;40;08;05

And they were like,

00;40;08;05 - 00;40;11;05

as I'm listening to it, I'm like,

why is this reminding me of Google?

00;40;11;12 - 00;40;14;02

It's like not every workplace, you know,

00;40;14;02 - 00;40;18;06

kind of sets its teeth in emotionally,

psychologically, you know, whatever.

00;40;18;06 - 00;40;19;20

But I think that and I don't even know

00;40;19;20 - 00;40;21;19

if if Google

is capable of doing that anymore.

00;40;21;19 - 00;40;23;27

I'm sure some people like anthropic

or something.

00;40;23;27 - 00;40;27;01

These other companies, like people

probably having that kind of like

00;40;27;01 - 00;40;30;06

cultish family feeling still exists,

you know, in tech.

00;40;30;08 - 00;40;31;24

Very it's very much how they do it.

00;40;31;24 - 00;40;33;18

But, you know,

I think there's more skepticism

00;40;33;18 - 00;40;34;25

and whatever

with some of these big companies.

00;40;34;25 - 00;40;38;20

But all this is to say, it's

such an emotional job.

00;40;38;20 - 00;40;40;18

And I like I think I came to,

00;40;41;22 - 00;40;42;04

I came

00;40;42;04 - 00;40;45;27

to realize that, you know, it's

much healthier, more interesting.

00;40;45;27 - 00;40;47;21

You can have a richer life,

you know, if you're not.

00;40;47;21 - 00;40;51;02

So, like, fuzed with your kind of like,

institutional workplace.

00;40;51;13 - 00;40;55;18

So, yeah, like, I definitely have it,

you know, because I left in 2019.

00;40;55;18 - 00;40;56;20

So I was like Covid,

00;40;56;20 - 00;40;59;28

I had this like other kid

and my life just like changed so much.

00;40;59;28 - 00;41;01;16

I kind of like became a sort of part

00;41;01;16 - 00;41;04;25

time worker,

stay at home mom for a few years almost.

00;41;05;07 - 00;41;07;22

And, you know, it was really hard

because I was like, wow.

00;41;07;22 - 00;41;11;08

And you're like in charge of your time

and, you know, you have to kind of go

00;41;11;08 - 00;41;13;16

and figure out what to do

and how to make money and all this things.

00;41;13;16 - 00;41;17;05

It's like, it's so much easier

to just be kind of like on the train.

00;41;17;05 - 00;41;17;17

Right?

00;41;18;18 - 00;41;19;12

But, you know,

00;41;19;12 - 00;41;22;13

you know, ultimately it was a really kind

of profound and healthy shift

00;41;22;13 - 00;41;23;05

for me in my life.

00;41;23;05 - 00;41;27;19

So, yeah, there's things that I think

that definitely when I look back at,

00;41;27;20 - 00;41;29;12

you know, how I kind of like escalated

00;41;29;12 - 00;41;32;12

the retaliation

and all these things like it,

00;41;33;17 - 00;41;37;01

it, you know, I think I still see how much

00;41;37;01 - 00;41;40;07

I kind of believed that

the system would, like, make it right.

00;41;41;10 - 00;41;44;15

And, you know, it

kind of just kept deteriorating.

00;41;44;15 - 00;41;47;23

I wonder if that sort of like, by design

that, like, the more you kind of like.

00;41;48;13 - 00;41;52;03

Because my boss, who I was accusing

of retaliation, started to be like,

00;41;53;15 - 00;41;55;10

you know,

you're making things really hard for me.

00;41;55;10 - 00;41;56;27

Like, it's really hurtful for me

that you're, like,

00;41;56;27 - 00;42;00;29

making these claims, which is like, crazy,

you know, it's like, it's it, you know,

00;42;00;29 - 00;42;04;16

it was so emotional, you know,

but it was totally gaslighting.

00;42;04;27 - 00;42;07;27

But I was like,

I was so it was so stressful.

00;42;07;27 - 00;42;10;16

I think that that's, you know,

I wonder if I might have approached it.

00;42;11;29 - 00;42;14;12

You know, just purely

from a legal standpoint or something,

00;42;14;12 - 00;42;15;20

you know, like, I'm like, okay,

this is wrong.

00;42;15;20 - 00;42;16;26

So I'm just going to take this

to the lawyer

00;42;16;26 - 00;42;20;21

as opposed to what I tried to do,

which was spend that last bit of belief,

00;42;20;24 - 00;42;23;13

you know, and capital in the company

to go through this process,

00;42;23;13 - 00;42;26;02

which is so crazy

and so full of these moments

00;42;26;02 - 00;42;28;10

where they're like suggesting

I take a medical leave.

00;42;28;10 - 00;42;31;26

There's a the first HR person I told,

first HR person I talked to told me

00;42;32;03 - 00;42;34;25

I should like,

you know, proposed taking my manager

00;42;34;25 - 00;42;37;18

out of the office for like, an activity

or coffee or something.

00;42;37;18 - 00;42;40;00

I'm just like it

was. It's the gaslighting.

00;42;40;00 - 00;42;43;16

I'm just, like, pushing it back down

to the person created a few months that,

00;42;43;16 - 00;42;46;16

you know, I still feel like for my younger

kid, I'm like, I was so stressed out

00;42;46;17 - 00;42;49;21

during pregnancy with you,

but please protect yourself.

00;42;50;21 - 00;42;51;07

But yeah,

00;42;51;07 - 00;42;54;21

it it it it I think I made my life

a little harder

00;42;54;21 - 00;42;57;25

with, with my last gasp of, like,

believing Google would make it right.

00;42;57;25 - 00;43;01;05

But, for the most part,

I, I feel also that,

00;43;01;28 - 00;43;04;22

speaking out so much about

00;43;04;22 - 00;43;06;25

just the kind of like, disingenuous

two faced

00;43;06;25 - 00;43;09;29

nature of a corporation

or Google in particular.

00;43;09;29 - 00;43;14;19

It's like I've had such an interesting,

imbalance of like the,

00;43;15;17 - 00;43;17;26

I've just other people commiserating,

you know, people like,

00;43;17;26 - 00;43;19;28

I remember this email

I got from someone who was like,

00;43;19;28 - 00;43;23;29

I was at IBM in Romania in the 1980s,

and like, they made my life hell.

00;43;23;29 - 00;43;26;03

And I'm just like,

you know, it's like everybody,

00;43;26;03 - 00;43;29;11

I think a lot of different

people can relate to feeling so small.

00;43;29;11 - 00;43;32;11

And if you have,

it really comes down to like,

00;43;32;19 - 00;43;35;18

you know, obviously this is a really big

conflict with the company, but, you know,

00;43;35;18 - 00;43;39;20

you can read my story

as this sort of like a management tragedy.

00;43;39;20 - 00;43;43;20

You know, it's sort of like the, the,

the manager exerting this power,

00;43;44;11 - 00;43;48;09

you know, reinforcing the powerlessness

of the employee,

00;43;49;01 - 00;43;50;23

the kind of cautionary tale of that.

00;43;50;23 - 00;43;51;19

And I'd be really curious.

00;43;51;19 - 00;43;56;03

I'm really curious if, that manager,

I'm sure she would never admit weakness

00;43;56;03 - 00;43;57;11

or reflection care,

00;43;57;11 - 00;43;59;01

but if she feels like

00;43;59;01 - 00;44;00;15

it could have been handled

any differently,

00;44;00;15 - 00;44;02;14

if that situation

could have been mediated.

00;44;02;14 - 00;44;05;00

So it wasn't, you know,

kind of so dramatic as it was, but,

00;44;06;09 - 00;44;06;26

you know.

00;44;06;26 - 00;44;09;24

Yeah. So it was

a great learning experience at this point.

00;44;09;24 - 00;44;12;14

I was I sort of like process

the trauma of it.

00;44;12;14 - 00;44;14;05

I'm like, yeah, well, it is what it is.

00;44;14;05 - 00;44;15;26

It was the fire, the temper, the steel.

00;44;15;26 - 00;44;18;26

My like crazy trajectory at Google.

00;44;19;15 - 00;44;20;19

That that's that's the spirit.

00;44;20;19 - 00;44;24;13

I like that, I like that analogy

and that that sentiment of.

00;44;24;14 - 00;44;26;14

Yeah, tempering.

00;44;26;14 - 00;44;29;06

So you know, clear

00;44;29;06 - 00;44;32;08

to me, like the most interesting part

of all of this is,

00;44;32;22 - 00;44;35;22

you know, you had such a unique

front row seat to this,

00;44;36;04 - 00;44;39;03

but the the experience itself

00;44;39;03 - 00;44;42;09

of becoming disillusioned

with your employer,

00;44;42;14 - 00;44;45;13

with believing that

00;44;45;13 - 00;44;48;02

they should be operating

within a certain values

00;44;48;02 - 00;44;52;02

framework, that they have your back,

that they're going to adhere to some,

00;44;52;11 - 00;44;56;09

you know, I don't know,

some sort of moral foundation

00;44;56;09 - 00;45;00;25

that's better than like a cost

benefit analysis or like the bare minimum.

00;45;01;08 - 00;45;05;24

And then watching that fall apart

and just feeling like, should I speak up?

00;45;05;24 - 00;45;07;08

Should I do the courageous thing?

00;45;07;08 - 00;45;09;27

Am I going to get punished

if I do the courageous thing like

00;45;11;06 - 00;45;13;03

I? I feel extremely confident

00;45;13;03 - 00;45;17;15

that there are literally millions

of people in some version of that.

00;45;18;01 - 00;45;19;28

You know that plight right now.

00;45;19;28 - 00;45;22;15

What's what's your advice to them?

00;45;22;15 - 00;45;24;04

Like,

what's your advice to your younger self?

00;45;24;04 - 00;45;27;03

What's your advice to somebody

who's in this scenario

00;45;27;06 - 00;45;30;01

and doesn't know what to do?

00;45;30;01 - 00;45;32;19

I think you have to be sort of clear

eyed about the risks.

00;45;32;19 - 00;45;35;19

And in organizing, there's a lot of,

00;45;35;28 - 00;45;38;29

conversation

about the spectrum of risk tolerance.

00;45;38;29 - 00;45;41;20

And yeah, there were

there are people that,

00;45;41;20 - 00;45;45;10

you know, were deeply passionate about

certain ethical issues within the company.

00;45;45;10 - 00;45;47;17

It was personal for them.

00;45;47;17 - 00;45;50;17

But they wanted to remain anonymous

because they're, you know,

00;45;50;19 - 00;45;53;25

sending money home to their family or,

you know, these things are like

00;45;53;25 - 00;45;55;16

it's completely fair

to want to keep your job.

00;45;55;16 - 00;45;58;13

And that's, you know, a risk

that not everyone's going to want to take.

00;45;58;13 - 00;45;59;03

I think that,

00;46;00;22 - 00;46;02;06

you know,

00;46;02;06 - 00;46;05;24

my advice to people usually

is to find a job where, you know,

00;46;05;24 - 00;46;09;08

you don't feel like you're so compromised

that it's sort of like you're,

00;46;10;04 - 00;46;14;20

the manager, the nature of the work,

the skills that you bring to the job,

00;46;14;20 - 00;46;16;06

that there's something sort of like,

00;46;16;06 - 00;46;18;06

you know, something

you can sink your teeth into,

00;46;18;06 - 00;46;20;00

maybe not have to, you know,

00;46;20;00 - 00;46;22;13

tack some, you know,

kind of big ideological framework

00;46;22;13 - 00;46;25;12

that you're changing the world or so

the grandiosity that I saw at Google. But,

00;46;26;18 - 00;46;30;09

I think that there's so many small ways

that you can make a better world.

00;46;30;09 - 00;46;31;28

I mean, honestly,

it's like I think that, you know,

00;46;31;28 - 00;46;37;04

some of probably that some of the, stuff

I'm, I look back on in my career

00;46;37;04 - 00;46;40;04

as I became a manager was,

you know, you sit in the,

00;46;40;20 - 00;46;44;14

performance reviews

and you understand all the kind of, like,

00;46;44;14 - 00;46;46;22

implicit bias that comes in,

you know, all the,

00;46;46;22 - 00;46;49;18

some of the very subjective ways

people's value is measured.

00;46;49;18 - 00;46;52;21

And, you know, it, it replicates,

you know,

00;46;52;27 - 00;46;55;21

really kind of like complicated

human systems.

00;46;55;21 - 00;46;58;14

I think that there, you know,

there's a way to kind of like speak up

00;46;58;14 - 00;47;00;03

for other people and like,

00;47;00;03 - 00;47;02;12

use a little bit of your privilege

without, you know,

00;47;02;12 - 00;47;05;11

kind of blowing your wad like me and,

you know, getting fired or whatever, but,

00;47;07;04 - 00;47;08;28

yeah, I think that, like,

00;47;08;28 - 00;47;14;23

cultivating a mind where you can observe,

you know, what the company's doing.

00;47;15;07 - 00;47;17;20

Stay in touch

with your own kind of values.

00;47;17;20 - 00;47;18;13

And I think that,

00;47;18;13 - 00;47;20;13

you know, as I've seen along

the way, people reach a point

00;47;20;13 - 00;47;24;15

where they just get fed up with it,

and then you either, you know,

00;47;25;15 - 00;47;29;11

try to commit to your

to make your dissent known.

00;47;29;11 - 00;47;33;02

And I remember I so admired

in my old department, which didn't really

00;47;33;02 - 00;47;36;02

welcome people challenging authority

the way that,

00;47;36;08 - 00;47;38;00

it wasn't sort of Google in the old days,

00;47;38;00 - 00;47;39;27

but people who would ask

challenging questions.

00;47;39;27 - 00;47;41;29

And I think that,

00;47;41;29 - 00;47;45;11

you know, it can't be all people

who are, like, perfectly compliant.

00;47;45;11 - 00;47;46;17

It's like they're there.

00;47;46;17 - 00;47;47;27

There's I think there's there's

00;47;47;27 - 00;47;51;06

kind of sophisticated ways that people

can maintain their own humanity.

00;47;52;03 - 00;47;54;19

Try to check the balances of power,

00;47;54;19 - 00;47;58;00

maybe in small ways in their teams

or in bigger ways in the sort of like,

00;47;58;26 - 00;48;02;15

you know, organizing as well as, but,

you know, like being aware of your,

00;48;02;15 - 00;48;05;15

your, your privilege and being prepared

to spend a little bit of it,

00;48;05;28 - 00;48;09;28

is, is, is is like how kind of like

slow ruptures and changes happen.

00;48;10;25 - 00;48;13;29

Over time, I think people are offered

opportunities to make,

00;48;14;09 - 00;48;15;28

small changes in a lot of different ways.

00;48;15;28 - 00;48;18;08

And I've also seen, you know,

what kind of disappoints me is

00;48;18;08 - 00;48;20;01

I see a lot of people

put their head in the sand, you know,

00;48;20;01 - 00;48;24;24

when they certainly, like, even like

I couple there, a couple people that,

00;48;26;10 - 00;48;26;23

we're kind of

00;48;26;23 - 00;48;29;23

close colleagues of mine, and they,

00;48;30;17 - 00;48;34;10

when I left, they never said anything or,

you know, it's like.

00;48;34;19 - 00;48;37;15

And sometimes, like,

if those people now you know, years later,

00;48;37;15 - 00;48;39;24

they'll be like,

you know, commenting on, like an Instagram

00;48;39;24 - 00;48;42;23

story of mine or something,

or like just some minor thing, right?

00;48;42;23 - 00;48;44;16

Might a minor touchpoint.

00;48;44;16 - 00;48;46;23

A couple of these people

in the writing of the book,

00;48;46;23 - 00;48;49;23

I actually responded to them to say,

I'm curious

00;48;50;02 - 00;48;52;27

what happened when I left

and you saw your friend from work

00;48;52;27 - 00;48;56;14

go through this

like crazy traumatic rupture

00;48;56;14 - 00;48;58;22

and kind of like the

this like was awful, as,

00;48;58;22 - 00;49;01;01

like the heads of my department were like,

Claire's a liar.

00;49;01;01 - 00;49;02;01

She's making up this whole thing.

00;49;02;01 - 00;49;04;24

I mean, it was like,

kind of crazy, situation.

00;49;04;24 - 00;49;08;10

And, you know,

I had this one of these conversations.

00;49;08;11 - 00;49;11;24

Someone said to me,

I was basically like to check in, like,

00;49;11;24 - 00;49;15;23

I, I felt that, you know, they were

management was saying one thing.

00;49;15;23 - 00;49;18;23

And to, like,

even express support to you privately was,

00;49;19;20 - 00;49;21;21

something that I didn't feel comfortable

with at the time.

00;49;21;21 - 00;49;24;07

And I'm just like, don't be that person.

00;49;24;07 - 00;49;27;21

Like, I just can't imagine, like,

I personally can't imagine being like,

00;49;27;27 - 00;49;31;26

I need to now be like so in my box

of like the management line

00;49;32;04 - 00;49;34;29

that when I see something

that's so clearly wrong

00;49;34;29 - 00;49;38;02

that, you know, I couldn't like, you know,

reach out to my friend or whatever.

00;49;38;02 - 00;49;39;15

So I feel like,

00;49;39;15 - 00;49;42;09

you know, having a little bit of courage,

a little bit of moral

00;49;42;09 - 00;49;45;24

outrage is a really important thing

to, like, maintain in a world where,

00;49;46;23 - 00;49;48;25

you know, things are so complicated

00;49;48;25 - 00;49;53;01

and we do feel so small, and, you know,

the kind of ripple effect that can exist.

00;49;53;01 - 00;49;54;20

And I think that

but the kind of good thing

00;49;54;20 - 00;49;57;20

now is, as opposed to in 2007,

where I would have been really weird

00;49;57;20 - 00;50;00;26

if you were like saying, oh, Google,

is this like evil company or whatever.

00;50;00;26 - 00;50;03;26

Now, people,

there's so much more awareness of the,

00;50;03;27 - 00;50;07;24

you know, complex influence

that tech is having on our lives.

00;50;07;24 - 00;50;11;26

And a lot of people are reading

nefarious influences and or,

00;50;12;07 - 00;50;15;06

you know, crazy,

kind of like capitalistic,

00;50;15;09 - 00;50;18;16

you know, goals having like,

these companies in a chokehold

00;50;18;16 - 00;50;20;00

such that, like, who cares about what

00;50;20;00 - 00;50;22;13

their values are on paper,

they're just soulless or whatever.

00;50;22;13 - 00;50;25;25

So all this is to say, the little there's

the, these little kind of cracks here

00;50;26;00 - 00;50;30;20

where people are freer to think,

to think more freely and not be so like,

00;50;30;20 - 00;50;33;20

you know, what management says is

true or whatever. So.

00;50;33;27 - 00;50;34;04

Yeah,

00;50;35;12 - 00;50;38;28

that that transition, I guess, culturally

is like

00;50;39;07 - 00;50;42;16

one of the things that makes me feel

really sad is like, I don't know, I'm

00;50;42;16 - 00;50;44;19

sure you remember, like that age,

you kind of described it

00;50;44;19 - 00;50;48;26

where like, talent mattered and people

wanted to like, measure employee

00;50;48;26 - 00;50;53;03

engagement and like, yeah, it felt like

what you thought mattered versus, you

00;50;53;03 - 00;50;56;13

know, companies are kind of like clamoring

to replace you

00;50;56;25 - 00;50;59;22

at the drop of a hat.

00;50;59;22 - 00;51;01;24

Now, I'm curious,

00;51;01;24 - 00;51;05;03

from your perspective,

you made a throwaway comment earlier

00;51;05;03 - 00;51;08;03

about anthropic and,

oh, maybe things are better at anthropic.

00;51;08;28 - 00;51;12;27

Do you have any sense, like Google in its

heyday was sort of this paragon

00;51;12;27 - 00;51;17;03

of being people driven, value driven art,

00;51;17;09 - 00;51;19;18

you know, that

that crown seems to have fallen.

00;51;19;18 - 00;51;20;19

That's pretty clear.

00;51;20;19 - 00;51;23;05

Are there organizations now?

00;51;23;05 - 00;51;26;23

You know that you hear people

talking about that you feel are, you know,

00;51;27;10 - 00;51;31;15

picking up that mantle and are,

you know, leading the charge there?

00;51;31;15 - 00;51;34;15

Or is this just like, really, you know,

00;51;34;19 - 00;51;38;16

the lost idealism of the age

and the world has moved on from.

00;51;38;23 - 00;51;42;00

I think, maybe a little bit the latter,

but I find the anthropic example

00;51;42;00 - 00;51;45;14

interesting because I can't really assess

the sincerity of it.

00;51;45;14 - 00;51;48;07

But I think it's a really good

marketing tool.

00;51;48;07 - 00;51;52;02

And, you know, I think that the that,

that, Google vacated

00;51;52;02 - 00;51;57;13

a spot of sort of

like the virtuous Googley corporation and,

00;51;58;16 - 00;52;00;24

I think that, you know, even though,

00;52;00;24 - 00;52;03;06

as I said,

I think a lot of the kind of ideals

00;52;03;06 - 00;52;08;06

and the kind of philosophy they were

exporting was pretty sincere at the time.

00;52;08;06 - 00;52;10;24

It also was really self-serving.

00;52;10;24 - 00;52;11;19

And I think that, like, you know,

00;52;11;19 - 00;52;14;19

even the, you know, the campus design or,

you know, taking the,

00;52;15;13 - 00;52;19;01

journalists around from, you know, Germany

and France and people would be like,

00;52;19;01 - 00;52;22;05

this is obviously like a big plot

to just keep the workers here, you know,

00;52;22;05 - 00;52;24;01

24 seven. I'm like, squeeze

the most out of them.

00;52;24;01 - 00;52;24;17

And, you know,

00;52;24;17 - 00;52;28;09

kind of like, wow, what a cynical,

you know, skeptical kind of perspective.

00;52;28;20 - 00;52;31;17

But of course, it was powerful

because it did

00;52;31;17 - 00;52;34;19

attract, an amazing group of people.

00;52;34;19 - 00;52;38;24

And, you know, that, you know,

those were some kind of glory years

00;52;38;24 - 00;52;40;26

where, you know, people felt really good

about working there.

00;52;40;26 - 00;52;43;11

And they did want to like,

you know, give 110% all these things,

00;52;43;11 - 00;52;45;10

like those two things

kind of work symbiotically.

00;52;46;20 - 00;52;47;26

So anyway, so as I've seen,

00;52;47;26 - 00;52;51;28

kind of like some of these AI companies,

really use a lot of that rhetoric.

00;52;51;28 - 00;52;53;16

I'm reading Empire of AI right now,

00;52;53;16 - 00;52;56;20

which is such a good book,

but it talks a lot about this.

00;52;56;20 - 00;53;00;22

This, you know, how these companies

sort of set the stakes of, you know,

00;53;00;22 - 00;53;04;12

humanity is that, you know, this is

everything in the world is at stake.

00;53;04;12 - 00;53;07;29

And, you know, the the survival

of the human race, even, and all this

00;53;08;10 - 00;53;11;10

and I think that,

it does attract a certain

00;53;11;10 - 00;53;14;17

kind of person that, you know, is deeply

invested in humanity.

00;53;14;17 - 00;53;14;26

Right?

00;53;14;26 - 00;53;18;02

And like, why would a company

not want people that are,

00;53;18;02 - 00;53;20;09

you know, tremendously,

you know, creative and real,

00;53;20;09 - 00;53;23;02

and now you see what the pay packages are

for people in AI.

00;53;23;02 - 00;53;26;12

Like clearly these companies

do believe talent is really important.

00;53;27;14 - 00;53;28;21

And so I just hear kind of

00;53;28;21 - 00;53;31;15

from friends in tech

that it's like like, you know,

00;53;31;15 - 00;53;33;26

wow, everyone's trying to like go work

at anthropic now and all this.

00;53;33;26 - 00;53;36;15

And I'm like,

you know, I it's I can't assess.

00;53;36;15 - 00;53;39;15

Wow. Is that a pure hearted,

like a pure hearted,

00;53;40;02 - 00;53;41;28

you know, direction

for the enterprise? Just.

00;53;41;28 - 00;53;44;06

Do they really know

when the going gets tough?

00;53;44;06 - 00;53;45;16

Would they stick to those values,

00;53;45;16 - 00;53;48;29

or is it just,

a really powerful market positioning to,

00;53;50;00 - 00;53;52;25

It's probably a mix, right? So,

00;53;52;25 - 00;53;55;05

you know, and I think that, you know,

it still is a story of tech.

00;53;55;05 - 00;53;57;26

So I, as I said, with,

you know, my chain of management,

00;53;57;26 - 00;54;01;02

if they really didn't

care about being perceived as,

00;54;01;03 - 00;54;04;13

you know, a wonderful company

that really cares about people, you know,

00;54;04;20 - 00;54;07;04

they wouldn't put op eds out,

you know, saying how they're,

00;54;07;04 - 00;54;08;24

you know, such a wonderful company,

constantly

00;54;08;24 - 00;54;11;24

reflecting on how to,

you know, be more inclusive and,

00;54;11;26 - 00;54;13;12

you know, all these other things,

even at a time when,

00;54;13;12 - 00;54;16;07

like, Dei is like kind of

fallen out of favor and such.

00;54;17;11 - 00;54;19;10

But, you

know, something in these companies,

00;54;19;10 - 00;54;22;14

even if they're constantly threatening

to replace white collar workers,

00;54;22;18 - 00;54;27;01

something in them wants to attract

and retain talent.

00;54;27;01 - 00;54;28;25

Right. So,

00;54;28;25 - 00;54;31;17

yeah,

I think it's I'm definitely interested to,

00;54;31;17 - 00;54;35;12

to follow like some of the parallels

between that early time, at Google

00;54;35;12 - 00;54;39;10

and AI because it seems like the

AI wars are sort of like heating up

00;54;39;10 - 00;54;42;03

the way I remember,

like the social media wars heating up,

00;54;42;03 - 00;54;44;29

which felt like, you know, much less crazy

stakes, because now the world seems like

00;54;44;29 - 00;54;47;29

it's like, you know,

going to hell in a handbasket. But,

00;54;48;21 - 00;54;52;25

yeah, that that the rhetoric

seems to be really, really sweeping again.

00;54;52;27 - 00;54;56;12

So like the, you know, not not just

00;54;56;12 - 00;54;59;14

changing the world, but like, saving

humanity is like, just kind of like, wow,

00;54;59;14 - 00;55;02;27

could there be a bigger stake,

like bigger stakes?

00;55;03;22 - 00;55;05;12

There's a

00;55;05;12 - 00;55;06;27

there's an implication in something

you said, though,

00;55;06;27 - 00;55;08;20

that I find really

interesting, which is that

00;55;10;06 - 00;55;13;27

being people focused, being virtuous,

like,

00;55;14;22 - 00;55;16;18

sure,

there's a world where you're doing it

00;55;16;18 - 00;55;19;24

for its own sake, and it's just because

it's the right thing to do.

00;55;19;24 - 00;55;23;09

And, you know, I sadly, I think you and I

are both a bit too cynical

00;55;23;09 - 00;55;24;26

to believe that, but that it's also

00;55;24;26 - 00;55;28;23

just like it's good for business

to be focused on people, right?

00;55;28;23 - 00;55;32;01

You can attract and retain talent,

you can build a better company,

00;55;32;01 - 00;55;33;17

you can build better products.

00;55;33;17 - 00;55;36;19

And like, I don't know, like to me

it's just sort of with that

00;55;36;26 - 00;55;39;20

mindset, it's just tragic

that we're losing that.

00;55;39;20 - 00;55;42;23

And it feels like if you're a good leader,

00;55;43;10 - 00;55;46;10

you don't have to be caring about people.

00;55;46;11 - 00;55;49;19

Just because you know you're virtuous.

00;55;49;19 - 00;55;51;02

It'd be nice if you were, but like,

00;55;51;02 - 00;55;54;02

it is still the right business decision

to do it to.

00;55;54;04 - 00;55;57;21

And that doesn't mean like, hey, write an

op ed and like Pat yourself on the back.

00;55;57;21 - 00;56;01;02

You did it like actually valuing people.

00;56;01;02 - 00;56;04;15

And it just seems like it's it's

the right business thing to do.

00;56;05;10 - 00;56;07;08

Yeah.

I think like leadership still matters.

00;56;07;08 - 00;56;09;26

I think that's a little bit

was sad coming out of the,

00;56;09;26 - 00;56;10;05

you know,

00;56;10;05 - 00;56;13;29

and I think it could absolutely be

some of the like unique complexities of

00;56;14;00 - 00;56;14;24

Google's leadership.

00;56;14;24 - 00;56;20;13

I think it's really hard to be a leader

in, you know, in a world where,

00;56;21;29 - 00;56;22;17

you know, the

00;56;22;17 - 00;56;26;13

shareholder dynamics

drive a lot of business decisions,

00;56;26;27 - 00;56;30;05

where things are really complex

and there's a lot of eyes on Google on it,

00;56;30;05 - 00;56;30;25

you know, all those other things.

00;56;30;25 - 00;56;36;08

But I kept waiting for leadership

kind of post walkout to like,

00;56;36;28 - 00;56;40;03

to figure out how to, like,

not just neutralize

00;56;40;15 - 00;56;42;26

what the women of the company

were bringing to leadership,

00;56;42;26 - 00;56;47;02

but to, like, actually hear it, you know,

and I think that that for whatever reason

00;56;47;02 - 00;56;52;08

and that moment, the threat of further

organizing became so existential

00;56;52;09 - 00;56;55;15

for the company that they just had

to, like, clamp you know,

00;56;55;15 - 00;56;59;03

and and that's exactly what happened

with my chain of, of leadership,

00;56;59;03 - 00;57;01;07

which I don't think that we're like

the most amazing leaders anyway.

00;57;01;07 - 00;57;02;19

And unfortunately,

I think you end up this, like

00;57;02;19 - 00;57;07;10

self-perpetuating cycle where the people

who are the best at serving the system

00;57;07;10 - 00;57;10;09

kind of get, keep, continue

to get elevated instead of the people who

00;57;10;09 - 00;57;11;06

know how to like,

00;57;12;06 - 00;57;15;02

maybe, you know, deal with the friction.

00;57;15;02 - 00;57;17;28

You know, kind of create stronger,

more resilient cultures like that.

00;57;17;28 - 00;57;20;19

That was the kind of what I got out of

Google at the end was like, wow,

00;57;20;19 - 00;57;22;07

how fragile is that?

00;57;22;07 - 00;57;25;07

Is the leadership in this culture

at the one of the walkouts,

00;57;25;18 - 00;57;28;05

tariffs or town halls? They did.

00;57;28;05 - 00;57;30;21

One of the executives was like,

you know, went

00;57;30;21 - 00;57;34;20

on this whole kind of like temper tantrum

rant about how, you know, it was

00;57;34;28 - 00;57;37;28

the way people were talking

about executives in this,

00;57;37;29 - 00;57;42;11

and then walk out and all of our comms

was so discriminatory about executives.

00;57;42;11 - 00;57;44;18

And it's not all executives,

you know, who are like, you know,

00;57;44;18 - 00;57;48;15

having improper relations that you know,

you know, we're we're really good people.

00;57;48;15 - 00;57;50;10

And you guys are like,

you know, painting this as a broad stroke.

00;57;50;10 - 00;57;51;06

And I'm just like,

00;57;51;06 - 00;57;55;18

yeah, this is what it means to be

a leader is like, you bear a higher.

00;57;55;18 - 00;57;56;13

It's like being a politician.

00;57;56;13 - 00;57;59;13

Like, I mean, not that matters anyone,

but you bear

00;57;59;29 - 00;58;02;14

a higher standard of moral conduct.

00;58;02;14 - 00;58;04;22

You have to absorb more.

That's what you sign up for.

00;58;04;22 - 00;58;08;12

That's why you're getting, like, whatever,

billions of dollars from your fortune.

00;58;09;02 - 00;58;10;13

That's what the money's for.

00;58;10;13 - 00;58;14;02

And, you know, I, I,

I wish to see and I think Larry and Sergey

00;58;14;03 - 00;58;15;27

have changed a lot over time.

00;58;15;27 - 00;58;20;11

Like, if you look at the, you know, the

there's a leaked video from TGIF

00;58;20;11 - 00;58;22;15

when Trump was elected

and you have Sergei, who was kind of

00;58;22;15 - 00;58;23;14

always like, sort of considered

00;58;23;14 - 00;58;26;16

to be the sort of moral bellwether,

sort of like you can't he's a contrarian.

00;58;26;16 - 00;58;27;14

You're just going to do it.

00;58;27;14 - 00;58;29;21

He's going to stand up

for what he cares about morally,

00;58;29;21 - 00;58;31;20

even if it's not

what the board wants or something.

00;58;31;20 - 00;58;35;02

And he was he goes like, he's this, this

kind of like beautiful remarks about how,

00;58;35;28 - 00;58;39;06

you know, how disappointed

he was in the election, you know,

00;58;39;06 - 00;58;42;14

and how it you kind of like, offend

so deeply offended his values, but,

00;58;42;14 - 00;58;44;29

you know, wanted to understand,

you know, why this happened.

00;58;44;29 - 00;58;49;28

And, you know, it's just sort of like,

the some of these things he holds so dear,

00;58;49;28 - 00;58;51;08

you know, as like an immigrant and,

00;58;51;08 - 00;58;52;22

you know,

all these other things of the country and,

00;58;52;22 - 00;58;55;09

you know, someone who cares about women

or whatever, all these things.

00;58;55;09 - 00;58;58;05

And then now he's like, you know,

front row at the inauguration behind

00;58;58;05 - 00;59;02;09

Trump, like,

you know, second and he's like,

00;59;02;09 - 00;59;06;05

you know, a huge MAGA guy and saying that,

you know, he was totally brainwashed

00;59;06;05 - 00;59;09;00

before and all this. And I'm just like,

wow, you guys have changed a lot.

00;59;09;00 - 00;59;11;01

I'm not gonna even I'm

not even ascribing moral value

00;59;11;01 - 00;59;13;27

to any of the statement here or there.

I it's just it's just more of that.

00;59;13;27 - 00;59;17;23

You guys have gotten in line with

sort of like, you know, kind of the power.

00;59;17;23 - 00;59;20;25

And that swung around a few different ways

in the, in the span of time

00;59;20;25 - 00;59;22;01

that we're talking about.

00;59;22;01 - 00;59;24;24

And I think it

probably I'd be really interested

00;59;24;24 - 00;59;28;02

to understand what happens to your brain,

your life, your priorities, your values

00;59;28;07 - 00;59;31;26

as you go through such a stratospheric

like, you know well, events

00;59;31;28 - 00;59;35;04

and like, you know, you live so much life

in the public eye and all these things.

00;59;35;04 - 00;59;37;06

I think it's really hard to stay,

00;59;37;06 - 00;59;38;29

tethered to

your humanity is like the same advice

00;59;38;29 - 00;59;42;25

I have, you know, for kind of like people

at any point, you know, at any stage of

00;59;42;26 - 00;59;43;20

organization. But,

00;59;44;24 - 00;59;46;18

yeah, it's it's really it's

00;59;46;18 - 00;59;50;28

really sad how, how kind of little like,

interesting and authentic leadership.

00;59;50;28 - 00;59;53;11

I see, you know,

at least in this one company

00;59;53;11 - 00;59;56;11

that I've been tracking

and living in for so long.

00;59;57;09 - 00;59;57;24

Yeah.

00;59;57;24 - 01;00;00;24

No, it's it's fair and it's it.

01;00;01;03 - 01;00;01;14

Yeah.

01;00;01;14 - 01;00;04;24

It's, it's own kind of depressing to,

I guess.

01;00;04;24 - 01;00;08;22

See that abdication of

of value driven leadership there.

01;00;09;13 - 01;00;09;29

Yeah.

01;00;09;29 - 01;00;14;16

One of the things you mentioned, Claire,

as you were talking was about leadership.

01;00;14;16 - 01;00;18;02

Like, not actually hearing the concerns.

01;00;18;14 - 01;00;20;11

And, you know, hearing was the verb there.

01;00;20;11 - 01;00;22;10

And I'm curious,

01;00;22;10 - 01;00;25;13

and I want to approach this

a little bit delicately, but

01;00;26;14 - 01;00;28;17

the story you lived

in, the story of Google here

01;00;28;17 - 01;00;32;18

that you're telling is in some ways

a very gendered story.

01;00;32;18 - 01;00;37;01

It's the story, as you said,

it's tied to me, to it's, you know,

01;00;38;16 - 01;00;39;22

women

01;00;39;22 - 01;00;43;20

who have had these experiences

sharing them, saying, that's not okay,

01;00;43;20 - 01;00;46;25

comparing notes, saying

we're all having similar experiences,

01;00;46;29 - 01;00;50;08

we're not being heard, and,

you know, we're being mistreated

01;00;50;08 - 01;00;52;23

and there's something we need to be done

that needs to be done about it.

01;00;52;23 - 01;00;56;06

And then ultimately, yeah, not being heard

and then being dismissed in some way.

01;00;58;02 - 01;00;58;21

I'm curious.

01;00;58;21 - 01;01;00;20

And this is coming from,

01;01;00;20 - 01;01;04;14

you know, me and I'm a sample of one,

I've talked to a handful of women who are,

01;01;05;00 - 01;01;09;15

I think almost exclusively x Google Now,

who in my mind are part of this sort of,

01;01;09;22 - 01;01;12;17

you know, resistance movement

or have had some of these experiences have

01;01;12;17 - 01;01;15;17

been, you know,

brave enough to speak out about it.

01;01;15;21 - 01;01;19;19

I don't see a lot of men in that movement.

01;01;19;19 - 01;01;22;22

And I didn't hear about a lot of men

in your story.

01;01;22;22 - 01;01;27;05

And I'm curious, you know what role,

if any, what role, if any of you saw

01;01;27;09 - 01;01;32;23

you saw men playing or not playing and

what you what you see as the role of men

01;01;33;08 - 01;01;37;25

in, I guess, conflict like this, like,

like how can men be a force for good?

01;01;37;27 - 01;01;41;23

And how does this not just become,

oh, it's those damn women and

01;01;41;23 - 01;01;45;10

their problems, you know, like, to me,

this is so obviously everybody's problem.

01;01;45;10 - 01;01;48;19

And I don't know, maybe, anyway, so

so yeah.

01;01;48;19 - 01;01;52;12

It's it's hard, but I think, you know,

things like with the kind of culture

01;01;52;12 - 01;01;55;14

going as it has, I think a lot of

this is sort of swung out of favor.

01;01;55;14 - 01;01;57;10

I mean, at that time in Google,

I think we,

01;01;57;10 - 01;02;00;23

we were doing a lot of like privilege

walks and bias training

01;02;00;23 - 01;02;03;04

and all this other stuff

that was trying to get people

01;02;03;04 - 01;02;06;16

that don't really identify

as being from a marginalized group to

01;02;07;15 - 01;02;10;18

take stock of the ways in

which they have enjoyed a lot of sort of

01;02;10;18 - 01;02;14;14

like privilege in the system that we have

and maybe think about, as I said before,

01;02;14;14 - 01;02;17;14

think about ways that they might, consider

01;02;18;18 - 01;02;21;05

spending some of their privilege

to speak up for others.

01;02;21;05 - 01;02;24;05

But I think that, like, you know, I

01;02;24;05 - 01;02;26;06

with the, with the

with the organizing of Google,

01;02;26;06 - 01;02;29;06

I do think that there is a tradition of,

01;02;29;17 - 01;02;34;10

male engineers who feel very strongly

about the way technology is deployed.

01;02;34;10 - 01;02;36;16

So in a, in a way that's personal for them

01;02;36;16 - 01;02;38;16

because it's like,

I don't want the code that I write.

01;02;38;16 - 01;02;42;11

To be used is like a weapon of war that,

some of the, you know, earlier,

01;02;42;11 - 01;02;45;14

the thing the organizing

that preceded the walkout Maven,

01;02;45;14 - 01;02;48;14

dragonfly, some of these other things

that were about,

01;02;48;20 - 01;02;50;12

there was a movement

called Tech Home, build it.

01;02;50;12 - 01;02;52;04

And I do think there are quite a few,

01;02;53;05 - 01;02;55;27

people on the kind of technology side,

01;02;55;27 - 01;02;58;23

who were willing to stick their neck out

and a lot of who as you say, like

01;02;58;23 - 01;03;01;05

cisgender white men. Right.

01;03;01;05 - 01;03;04;12

But I do think that a lot of times

I be in organizing circles,

01;03;05;17 - 01;03;08;01

it it is women and people of color.

01;03;08;01 - 01;03;11;01

And I think that it is,

01;03;11;04 - 01;03;14;04

it's people who can deeply

01;03;14;05 - 01;03;17;05

relate to, empathize

with, have experienced

01;03;17;11 - 01;03;20;12

something that radicalized them

and a little bit of a way.

01;03;20;12 - 01;03;22;25

Not like, you know,

that doesn't mean you know anyone.

01;03;22;25 - 01;03;26;07

One thing, I just mean that, it made them

01;03;27;07 - 01;03;30;13

feel a bit more kind of like rebellious,

I think of like that.

01;03;30;18 - 01;03;34;03

And it made it personal for them

such that they, feel like something is at

01;03;34;03 - 01;03;37;03

stake for them or, you know, people

that they love and all this other thing.

01;03;37;03 - 01;03;38;14

I think it's why you sort of like

01;03;38;14 - 01;03;41;05

in the MeToo movement,

you somehow see, you know, like Paul

01;03;41;05 - 01;03;44;04

Tessler saying, like as a mother of

or as a father of daughters, you know,

01;03;44;04 - 01;03;45;04

this is personal for me or something.

01;03;45;04 - 01;03;47;26

It's like, whatever it takes,

like make it personal for you.

01;03;47;26 - 01;03;50;23

But it really is personal

for people who have experienced,

01;03;50;23 - 01;03;52;25

discrimination in any form.

I think, like that.

01;03;52;25 - 01;03;54;25

You know, part of the experience

of writing this book is like,

01;03;54;25 - 01;03;57;09

you know, in so many ways, I'm like,

you know, so privileged, right?

01;03;57;09 - 01;04;01;28

So it's like,

you know, I, I, you know, knowing,

01;04;03;02 - 01;04;06;10

trans people and people who have,

01;04;06;22 - 01;04;10;03

you know, Palestinian or Lebanese family

or something who like, you know, as

01;04;10;03 - 01;04;13;05

they see, the way that Google was engaging

in like,

01;04;13;05 - 01;04;16;20

global conflict or in the,

in the trans on the trans issue,

01;04;16;20 - 01;04;19;29

Google was very fickle about,

you know, it support YouTube.

01;04;19;29 - 01;04;22;12

It was constantly like,

we're speaking out for trans kids.

01;04;22;12 - 01;04;25;03

And then it's like, no, we're not,

because this is like not popular anymore.

01;04;25;03 - 01;04;28;05

Or, you know, in this it's less dangerous

now that the administration changed

01;04;28;05 - 01;04;29;03

whatever.

01;04;29;03 - 01;04;32;03

But, you know, people,

01;04;32;03 - 01;04;36;14

I think that, people who, you know, what

what is it?

01;04;36;18 - 01;04;39;17

What does it take

for someone to risk anything?

01;04;39;17 - 01;04;43;27

And I think that the, you know,

the had the deep lived experience,

01;04;44;16 - 01;04;46;29

I think just propels people

to take more of a risk.

01;04;46;29 - 01;04;50;24

So, you know, I think, like I do urge

people who feel like they, you know,

01;04;50;24 - 01;04;53;13

it's like the people

who are so comfortable,

01;04;53;13 - 01;04;57;05

in, in the company, I think like, again,

I'm like, I encourage people to like,

01;04;57;19 - 01;05;00;21

try to cultivate a sense for,

you know, the morality

01;05;00;21 - 01;05;02;17

or lack thereof, of a corporation.

01;05;02;17 - 01;05;05;17

It's the sort of like a neutral,

you know, neutral or negative, whatever.

01;05;05;22 - 01;05;08;16

It's like you know, these decisions

that these, you know, companies make,

01;05;09;26 - 01;05;11;09

you know, don't just become

01;05;11;09 - 01;05;14;20

completely like,

you know, insulated from it.

01;05;15;26 - 01;05;18;24

You know, it's like I sometimes I feel

that, you know, this kind of extreme

01;05;18;24 - 01;05;22;01

cynicism like I've, you know, friends

who are still at these tech companies,

01;05;22;01 - 01;05;23;26

they're like, oh, yeah, of course

these companies are evil.

01;05;23;26 - 01;05;26;02

Like, you know, I just got to keep, like,

collecting my paycheck and whatever.

01;05;26;02 - 01;05;28;08

I'm like, do better.

You can do better, you know? Okay.

01;05;28;08 - 01;05;29;29

We can like, you know, we can try.

01;05;29;29 - 01;05;32;04

We can try to like,

you know, stand up for others

01;05;32;04 - 01;05;36;01

because a lot, a lot of people around out

there, you know, who are more vulnerable,

01;05;36;01 - 01;05;39;27

don't have the same, ability to just say,

I'm just going to kind of like, you know,

01;05;39;27 - 01;05;41;11

laugh it off. Nothing's at stake for me.

01;05;41;11 - 01;05;42;24

Even though I think these companies

are evil.

01;05;42;24 - 01;05;45;24

So, Yeah,

but I do think that they're, you know,

01;05;45;26 - 01;05;48;26

behind the scenes

as we, as we were leaving,

01;05;48;28 - 01;05;50;21

I would say

there were a lot of great allies,

01;05;50;21 - 01;05;53;09

and there were a lot of men

who took part in the in the walkout.

01;05;53;09 - 01;05;54;22

But I think when like, you know,

01;05;54;22 - 01;05;56;12

push came to shove,

like a lot of the people

01;05;56;12 - 01;05;58;06

that are actually really active, engaged.

01;05;58;06 - 01;06;01;08

The other thing I will say

to like a slightly different point

01;06;01;10 - 01;06;05;01

is how I think women are also really used

to doing unpaid work.

01;06;05;01 - 01;06;07;10

It's like I would

I it's like it's almost a cliche,

01;06;07;10 - 01;06;11;03

but like, I was really involved

when I was really involved with my kids,

01;06;12;28 - 01;06;14;11

school, every kid's preschool, you know,

01;06;14;11 - 01;06;17;02

there's like kind of a co-op preschool

in our, Brooklyn neighborhood.

01;06;17;02 - 01;06;18;18

And I would just be like,

looking around these board

01;06;18;18 - 01;06;20;21

meetings and we,

you know, we have some great men,

01;06;20;21 - 01;06;23;25

too, you know, but it's just like,

women are so used to,

01;06;24;22 - 01;06;27;11

supporting their communities

and caregiving, you know, and it's,

01;06;27;11 - 01;06;28;21

you know, it's it's it's

01;06;28;21 - 01;06;31;21

part of how we're oriented to the world

is part of how we're conditioned.

01;06;32;12 - 01;06;35;14

It's part of just how we, like,

you know, how we expect our lives

01;06;35;14 - 01;06;37;22

are going to be that there's like,

you know, that there's

01;06;37;22 - 01;06;38;09

that it's

01;06;38;09 - 01;06;41;11

gratifying and fulfilling and like,

I think that's what the example of being

01;06;41;11 - 01;06;46;24

in the preschool is that women, I think,

are sometimes more able to say it.

01;06;46;27 - 01;06;49;14

I see what's in it for me

because it feels good to like, you know,

01;06;49;14 - 01;06;52;13

show up for my community and spend time

with other people and all this.

01;06;52;24 - 01;06;53;28

Whereas, you know, I think that, you know,

01;06;53;28 - 01;06;57;01

men on the other side are like,

you know, conditioned to like,

01;06;57;24 - 01;07;00;19

think about work and be,

you know, concerned about what

01;07;00;19 - 01;07;01;29

they're taking home

and being the breadwinner,

01;07;01;29 - 01;07;03;02

you know, all these other thing,

you know, these

01;07;03;02 - 01;07;06;04

very kind of like gendered notions

of how we structure our days in our lives.

01;07;07;02 - 01;07;08;26

But yeah, sometimes I like,

you know, like,

01;07;08;26 - 01;07;10;26

have a male friend

in these sort of volunteer positions.

01;07;10;26 - 01;07;12;00

They're like,

it's actually kind of awesome.

01;07;12;00 - 01;07;13;00

Like, you know, it's

01;07;13;00 - 01;07;15;29

like the women, the one guy, you know,

it's like that, you know, like, oh, yeah.

01;07;15;29 - 01;07;16;29

Like I was kind of grumbling

01;07;16;29 - 01;07;18;23

about the time commitment,

but it's going to be great. So,

01;07;20;13 - 01;07;20;23

yeah.

01;07;20;23 - 01;07;22;23

Like it's it is just very it's

just very interesting.

01;07;22;23 - 01;07;27;22

My, my book too is like, you know, when,

when they like the cover of it.

01;07;27;25 - 01;07;29;01

So like Google was like

01;07;29;01 - 01;07;32;07

and I remember saying like one of my early

feedback things about it was like,

01;07;33;09 - 01;07;35;00

can you tell this like a women's book?

01;07;35;00 - 01;07;38;06

Because actually quite a bit of the book

is quite a bit, you know,

01;07;38;07 - 01;07;41;07

quite a bit of points in my arc

which reckoned with,

01;07;41;24 - 01;07;44;05

my condition,

my unique conditioning as a woman

01;07;44;05 - 01;07;47;20

and how that played into

how I approached my role and how difficult

01;07;47;20 - 01;07;50;08

I found it to fight for myself,

for advocate for myself.

01;07;50;08 - 01;07;53;25

How I often fell into to doing sort of

like unpaid work.

01;07;53;25 - 01;07;55;00

And women are constantly doing that.

01;07;55;00 - 01;07;55;27

It's like,

01;07;55;27 - 01;07;58;05

you know, it's not like necessarily more

light needs to be thrown on that.

01;07;58;05 - 01;07;59;28

But, I think that that, that

01;07;59;28 - 01;08;03;01

definitely plays into the sort

of like dynamics of organizing as well.

01;08;04;24 - 01;08;06;16

No, I hadn't thought about that.

01;08;06;16 - 01;08;08;11

And it's like, yeah, as as I said,

01;08;08;11 - 01;08;12;09

there's like a sadness to that being like,

oh, yes, of course.

01;08;12;09 - 01;08;13;27

Like they're just willing to do more

01;08;13;27 - 01;08;16;27

because that's

what society is sort of demanded.

01;08;17;09 - 01;08;17;29

But it's interesting.

01;08;17;29 - 01;08;19;29

I hadn't thought about it through that.

01;08;19;29 - 01;08;23;11

Clear as we as we start to wrap up

this conversation and we've covered,

01;08;23;15 - 01;08;26;00

you know, quite a lot of ground, it's

been, you know, really interesting

01;08;26;00 - 01;08;28;20

and insightful

to hear about your experience.

01;08;28;20 - 01;08;32;24

Any sort of final thoughts,

I guess, for any business

01;08;32;24 - 01;08;35;28

or tech leaders

who are listening to this and

01;08;37;02 - 01;08;39;26

having some of the struggles

or concerns that you had or are

01;08;39;26 - 01;08;41;09

interested in building,

01;08;41;09 - 01;08;44;16

I guess a more a better and more virtuous

culture in their organization.

01;08;44;16 - 01;08;45;06

What can they do?

01;08;46;10 - 01;08;47;12

Yeah, I mean, I think that,

01;08;47;12 - 01;08;50;21

you know, my dad reading the book is like

he was a small business owner,

01;08;50;21 - 01;08;51;29

and I think he was like,

01;08;51;29 - 01;08;55;18

you know, kind of like a how to, like,

kind of bust the unions, sort of like,

01;08;55;18 - 01;08;58;19

you know, the, the employees

and the organizers always like trying

01;08;58;19 - 01;09;02;07

to, like, you know, impede the innovation

and like, you know, we need kind of like,

01;09;02;29 - 01;09;04;03

you know, unfettered,

01;09;04;03 - 01;09;06;18

you know, an unfettered road

to just, like, do what we want to do.

01;09;06;18 - 01;09;09;18

And even as a small business owner

selling art supplies, it's really that,

01;09;09;19 - 01;09;14;09

and I think that I hope that leaders

and kind of like

01;09;14;16 - 01;09;17;26

acts and managers

will read the book and understand

01;09;17;26 - 01;09;20;04

the employee perspective as well,

and the kind of

01;09;20;04 - 01;09;21;25

some of the challenging natures of that.

01;09;21;25 - 01;09;23;29

I think interpersonal stuff

can be really messy.

01;09;23;29 - 01;09;26;25

It can be really hard to manage,

an employee who's outspoken,

01;09;27;29 - 01;09;29;24

but also there's a lot of heart in it.

01;09;29;24 - 01;09;33;22

And I think that, like, again, it's

like to me, it's sort of like a confident

01;09;33;22 - 01;09;36;22

leader would be able to,

01;09;37;05 - 01;09;40;25

absorb, not absorb,

but would be able to hear the concerns

01;09;40;25 - 01;09;43;11

and the fire and the anger of the walkout

01;09;43;11 - 01;09;47;08

and transmute that into something

that made the company better.

01;09;47;18 - 01;09;49;25

And there are

there are so many like, possible paths.

01;09;49;25 - 01;09;52;03

And I actually

because I've never run an organization,

01;09;52;03 - 01;09;53;28

I really don't know what those past

might have been.

01;09;53;28 - 01;09;56;23

And I think there's every now and again

a Google executive might all like,

01;09;56;23 - 01;09;59;25

let's sort of like riff on the,

you know, the complexities

01;09;59;25 - 01;10;01;18

that make it really hard

to be a leader there or whatever.

01;10;01;18 - 01;10;02;15

I welcome that.

01;10;02;15 - 01;10;06;16

But I think that like, you know,

my first person account

01;10;06;16 - 01;10;10;11

is definitely something that, you know,

is written for other people

01;10;10;11 - 01;10;11;28

who are experiencing

like the challenges of,

01;10;11;28 - 01;10;15;25

of corporate life in a very chaotic

world that we live in today.

01;10;17;05 - 01;10;18;06

It's for that person.

01;10;18;06 - 01;10;23;22

But I also hope that, you know, leaders

can can find lessons in it as well,

01;10;23;23 - 01;10;28;22

because I think that that, dissent

doesn't have to be threatening.

01;10;28;22 - 01;10;31;26

It can kind of be like what

Google used to say, which is that it is,

01;10;32;07 - 01;10;37;02

a hallmark of a healthy culture

that, you know, celebrates and welcomes

01;10;37;02 - 01;10;41;03

the insights and, and the accountability

that employees can offer.

01;10;41;03 - 01;10;42;17

I mean, if anything,

I think we can all agree

01;10;42;17 - 01;10;44;26

that the tech companies

don't have a lot of accountability.

01;10;44;26 - 01;10;47;26

You know, it's a really important role

that,

01;10;47;26 - 01;10;50;18

that workers can play

and that I think that managers can like,

01;10;50;18 - 01;10;54;00

try to like be a bit toughen up about,

you know, so,

01;10;54;13 - 01;10;57;01

you know,

I wonder, you know, where we're heading

01;10;57;01 - 01;11;00;03

with the kind of like,

employer employee relationship, but,

01;11;00;11 - 01;11;01;23

I'm sure there will be many other

01;11;01;23 - 01;11;04;28

iterations of it in our lifetime

as tech continues to be like,

01;11;05;17 - 01;11;08;28

you know, one of the major employers,

for our world.

01;11;08;28 - 01;11;09;27

Right. So.

01;11;09;27 - 01;11;14;06

And also emperors of our lives,

they're so tremendously powerful that,

01;11;15;08 - 01;11;17;17

you know, I think

it would it would behoove these companies

01;11;17;17 - 01;11;21;02

to try to dig in and reflect

and be better.

01;11;23;01 - 01;11;24;04

I think that's well said.

01;11;24;04 - 01;11;26;08

And I don't know, I'm

01;11;26;08 - 01;11;29;19

I don't know if I'm cautiously optimistic,

but at least I want to be.

01;11;29;19 - 01;11;31;24

And I can see that

future that you're building.

01;11;31;24 - 01;11;35;29

And yeah, I think we all kind of owe it

to ourselves and our,

01;11;36;17 - 01;11;39;17

you know, companies to try and build

that future.

01;11;39;19 - 01;11;39;26

Clear.

01;11;39;26 - 01;11;41;25

I wanted to say such a big

thank you for coming on today.

01;11;41;25 - 01;11;44;25

Really. Great. Was a pleasure.

01;11;44;25 - 01;11;46;13

Yeah. Yeah.

01;11;46;13 - 01;11;46;23

So, yeah.

01;11;46;23 - 01;11;49;04

Thank you. And,

Yeah. Look forward to reading the book.

01;11;49;04 - 01;11;52;03

Yeah. I.

01;11;52;17 - 01;11;56;03

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