Digital Disruption

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These AI

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powered transformations

don't yield 3 or 4%.

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They get you 40 to 50% capacity release.

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As I said to one of my clients, you know,

we freed up 50% of your labor capacity.

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You've got three non

mutually exclusive choices.

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You could take it

as an opportunity to reset

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what is a pretty dire work environment.

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With a 40% turnover rate for.

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We could redeploy some of the games

so that we are improving

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what is almost an equally dire

customer experience.

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And the CEO, to his credit, said, I think

I'll have a little bit of all three.

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Please.

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This is the show about the future of work

and the future of tech.

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AI is radically reinventing

how work gets done.

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But when a company can free up

half its labor capacity,

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what happens to its people?

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Today, futurist and bestselling

author Robin Jesu Thorson explains

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which jobs are most vulnerable,

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why judgment may become

our most valuable skill, and how leaders

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can use AI's enormous productivity gains

without simply turning them into layoffs.

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I'm Jeff Nielsen,

and this is digital disruption.

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Well, Robin,

thank you so much for being here today.

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Really excited to have you on the program.

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You know, I want to talk a little bit

about AI in the context of the future

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of work automation, the impact that it's

going to have on all of our jobs.

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And so, you know, maybe to kick us off,

I'd like to ask you more broadly,

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when you think about the future of work,

how do you really conceptualize it?

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How do you conceive of it?

What do you see?

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Yeah.

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So firstly, Jeff, it's it's

truly a pleasure to.

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Be here with you.

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You know, it's it's interesting

because I was recently

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asked for a retrospective

on, on on my last six books

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that I've written, and all of them

are focused on the future of work in AI.

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And what started off back in the early 20

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tens as being this movement

towards work being done

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outside of the traditional confines

of what a job was, right?

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If you think of a job in an organization,

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the value exchange

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between company and person,

and then how that job is designed, etc.,

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that that liberation,

if you will, for a better phrase

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of the job into non-empty type,

non-empty type work relationships.

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And then in 20, you know, 2016,

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we published a book, John Boudreaux

and I Reinventing Jobs,

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that looked at the impact of machine

learning and deep learning,

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and this increasing human machine

collaboration that was kicking in.

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And then you fast forward, Jeff,

to where we are today.

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Where. AI has reached a different level

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of capability with generative

AI and AI agents.

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So, you know,

when I think of the future of work,

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I think it's it's it's a it's

the bending of the demand curve of work

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in a fundamentally different way,

different ways of getting work done

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that are exponentially more efficient,

effective and impactful

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than anything

we've contemplated in the past,

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but also the opportunity

to bend the supply curve of work

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in a different way,

making work increasingly more inclusive

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and adaptable for human needs

than we've ever contemplated in the past.

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So I don't know if that's true ethereal,

but I think of it as as, you know,

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in fairly positive terms, if

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if we choose to capture the opportunity

before us.

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No, I, I appreciate that answer.

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And I think there was a lot wrapped up.

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You you very quickly covered a lot of,

I think, different and important concepts.

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So maybe just on what you call

the demand curve of work

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and the supply curve of work,

can you unpack those a little bit,

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like what do those actually mean

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and what what's encompassed in those

and what's actually changing?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So when I think of the demand

curve of work, think of it as the mapping

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of the volume of work

against the total cost of work,

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whether that cost is from a human versus

a machine.

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ET cetera.

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And as you think about, you know,

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my little retrospective,

they of these different options

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for getting work done

as those options have increased

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from the use of gig workers

to not other types of non employed

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labor, to alliance partners, to AI and,

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you know, agents, etc.

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the cost of work, which is the y axis

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is now expanded

to include all these options.

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And what that's done is change.

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What was that traditional calculus of.

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Whereas the volume of work went up,

the cost would linearly go up

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to actually now where there is now

the separation, where as the volume goes

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up, the cost actually starts to decline

as we add to those options,

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as we substitute,

for example, in the example,

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the work of employees with a genetic AI,

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the cost of the token cost,

the compute cost is often a fraction

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of the cost of the human labor

that might be substituted.

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So that would be one example

of that demand curve bending,

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if you will, from its traditional

relationship.

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What we've had in place for,

you know, several hundred years, right.

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Of as work increases, the cost of work

increases equally.

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I think with AI,

if we think of the supply curve

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and you think of that

inverse relationship, right, of where,

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you know,

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when you think particularly of what

it takes to attract people to do work,

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you know, the use of AI

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allows us to bring a lot

of nontraditional talent into the mix,

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you know,

reducing that total cost of acquisition

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because we're now, catering to a more

diverse and broader pool of talent, talent

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we might traditionally have closed off

from opportunities.

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Now we're in the mix

because we can see their skills

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and capabilities, and we can see

how their adjacent skills and capabilities

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might allow them to take on new bodies

of work that perhaps they haven't done,

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but might be uniquely qualified for,

where perhaps they might not have

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the right degree,

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but they actually have the right skills

and capabilities to do that work.

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Is that helpful at all in terms

of the double click on both those curves?

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It is.

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And there's a word

you said that really is, you know,

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I think encompassing of your answer,

which is options.

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That feels like in the last ten years,

a lot of options have opened up around

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what work could be in terms

of how it's actually fulfilled.

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It's not just, hey, you have people

working, you know, 40 hour a week jobs.

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It's,

you know, as you said, it's, you know,

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non-labor work, it's AI, it's gig work.

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There

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there is a narrative out there

that in the next

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handful of years, all of those options

are going to collapse.

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And it's just going to be,

you know, just hand it all over to AI.

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And the future is, you know,

all I know people functionally

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and I'm deliberately

painting this in extreme.

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But I'm curious,

do you subscribe to some version of that

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or do you continue to see it be,

a future full of options?

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I think the future is incredibly nuanced,

and I know the word

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nuance is not good for that, for,

you know, the popular press, right?

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Who it's where it's beneficial

to paint things and start contrast.

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I actually think, Jeff,

the future is incredibly nuanced.

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I think for the foreseeable. Future.

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Certainly at a minimum,

the work requiring judgment,

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empathy and presence,

human presence is going to be with us,

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I believe, you know,

for at least my lifetime, if not beyond,

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I think AI is growing in capability

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and capacity by the day as, as we know.

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But there are so many, but

we all know of the jagged frontier of AI.

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There's certainly many things

that can be done, but there are so many

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impediments to this notion

of artificial general intelligence,

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where every body of work can be subsumed

by the technology, you know?

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And it's not just that the work itself

has these nuances that get in the way,

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but I also think we're starting

to see in many instances,

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you know, obstacles get put up,

you know, to the deployment of AI.

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We're seeing that with the data centers,

right?

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The energy consumption, the water usage.

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We're seeing that with, AI acting,

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you know, badly in some instances

when we think about,

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you know, some of the

unsanctioned activities that we've seen,

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we're starting to see the backlash from,

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from from schools and the workforce as,

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as a result of the cognitive decline

from the use of AI.

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And the last barrier, I will say that

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we're seeing

is the impact on the psyche of the worker.

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You know, we're seeing this this photo,

if you will, the sphere of becoming

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obsolete, rising by the day

as more people start to use AI as they see

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as they shift from seeing, oh, gee, it's

great at substituting

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some of my work today

and making my life easier to my goodness.

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It is so much more evolved today

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than it was yesterday,

and I can see it taking over my work.

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You know, for, for certain types of work.

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And so I do think all of those barriers

or risks,

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if you will, will act as constraints

on the evolution of, of AI.

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That makes some sense.

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Do you think that fear of becoming

obsolete, that that photo?

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I haven't heard that, but I like it.

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Is that well founded?

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Like like, is that a rational fear or

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is it something that we just need

to kind of train out of people?

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It's a really good question.

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I think for certain types of work, it is

it is a very rational fear.

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There's there's emerging data,

particularly in the United States, of,

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how in professions like,

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you know, finance, finance, insurance,

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professional services,

consulting, law firms, etc.

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over the last.

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Four years.

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As we've had generative AI in place,

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there has been an absolute decline

in overall employment.

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And it's it's it's

a very significant decline.

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And we're seeing that, you know,

I lead a large consulting business.

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I'm seeing before my very eyes

how our traditional pyramid

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is starting to morph into more of a

of a diamond shape, right

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where the work

we might have relied on a bright

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young analyst coming in, having her

make her mistakes for three years

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with applying her strong technical skills,

analytical skills,

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acquiring those domain and enabling skills

that make that person, you know,

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a senior consultant, that work is rapidly

being substituted by AI.

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So quote unquote, the new entry level

is someone who actually

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has been doing the work for a while,

who can apply judgment,

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who can apply a knowledge of the domain

to the problem,

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who can apply an understanding of the

how the customer is going to receive

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a particular piece of insight

to the actual development of that insight.

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So you're starting to see, you know, in

some of these professions, the evolution

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of the technology be very visible

to both organization and employee.

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So so I do think that Phobos

well founded in some domains.

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But again this is where the nuance is

really is important.

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Right.

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Because it's work

that was highly repetitive.

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It was rules based.

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It was technical in nature.

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It was often analytical

and quantitative in nature.

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So it lends itself

well to the deployment of AI.

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I think there are other professions

where, you know, that full bow

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is, is probably not as as pronounced

because again, those professions

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I mentioned, right, where it's judgment,

it's empathy and its presence,

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where you know that

AI is just not there yet.

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You hit on another fear

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that sounds like it's starting to be borne

out in data, and I've seen some reports

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that suggest this recently, which is that

that diamond shape organization.

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Right.

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And this is sort of the erosion

of the entry level role.

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And one of the fears I have,

and I guess it's,

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you know, a broader societal issue

is this sort of erosion of the

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economic contract of there's this track

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from education early in your career to

we will train you,

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you will learn, you'll get these skills

and you'll kind of move up this ladder.

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It starting

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to appear as though

that's fundamentally breaking,

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and that feels like it has implications

for firms.

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And maybe, frankly, firms get off easy.

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But for for people for demographics

that are going through this,

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that's a really,

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that's a really, I think, powerful fear.

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Is that something you worry about?

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And what would your reaction be to people

who are experiencing this?

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Yeah.

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Well,

I worry about this all the time, actually.

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I've got a a 28 year old and a 25 year old

and relatively new grandchild.

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So, I see this on a personal level.

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So I actually think,

and this is a bit of the thesis,

00;14;10;04 - 00;14;13;28

Jeff, of my upcoming book, it's

called Navigating the Intelligent Age,

00;14;14;04 - 00;14;17;15

and it'll be published

by the MIT press in 2027.

00;14;18;16 - 00;14;19;15

And it

00;14;19;15 - 00;14;22;26

looks at

it from both the lens of the individual,

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the organization, academia broadly

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defined, as well as public sector leaders.

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And I have the privilege of having worked

with the Singapore government

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for the last, gosh, more than ten years

now on their transformation

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journey towards becoming what

they would call a a skills first economy.

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And and so I absolutely see it.

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I do think there are from a company

perspective,

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there are an an educational sector

perspective.

00;14;49;06 - 00;14;50;24

There are two things changing.

00;14;50;24 - 00;14;53;23

One is companies in the past,

00;14;54;08 - 00;14;56;21

used to I'll go back to my example, right.

00;14;56;21 - 00;14;59;16

This tacit recognition

that I'm going to hire

00;14;59;16 - 00;15;03;16

someone out of MBA school, and I'm going

to spend the first three years

00;15;03;16 - 00;15;07;08

letting him or her make their mistakes

as they learn how craft.

00;15;07;17 - 00;15;12;03

But in that time, you know,

and they may not be the most revenue

00;15;12;03 - 00;15;15;14

generating, most productive person

in the world, but in three years,

00;15;15;18 - 00;15;18;17

they're going to know

all of our stuff, coupled with all of this

00;15;18;17 - 00;15;21;19

deep, extraordinary technical knowledge

that they already have.

00;15;21;25 - 00;15;24;24

And they're going to be

this extraordinary consultant.

00;15;24;27 - 00;15;26;28

And I can wait those three years.

00;15;26;28 - 00;15;29;16

I think the calculus is shifting in two

ways.

00;15;29;16 - 00;15;34;21

One is the definition of work

ready is changing really quickly.

00;15;35;11 - 00;15;38;20

And I think I'm seeing a couple of things

happen.

00;15;38;20 - 00;15;42;05

I'm seeing companies

start to place the burden on the academic

00;15;42;05 - 00;15;46;01

sector to say,

we need you to produce work ready talent.

00;15;46;19 - 00;15;50;19

That looks very different from the ones

you've produced for the last 150 years.

00;15;51;10 - 00;15;54;16

We actually need people who, in the past,

we might have considered a

00;15;55;04 - 00;15;56;12

two year consultant.

00;15;57;15 - 00;16;00;17

We need you to produce that person today

when we hire them.

00;16;00;24 - 00;16;04;16

And that's changing academia

and really radical ways.

00;16;05;00 - 00;16;08;16

Interestingly, there are some great models

in Switzerland and Germany

00;16;08;16 - 00;16;12;15

that have been been around forever

that are coming back into vogue

00;16;12;17 - 00;16;17;11

because they are explicitly geared

for providing that work ready talent.

00;16;17;26 - 00;16;21;24

In a number of instances, kids

in Switzerland, when they graduate,

00;16;22;12 - 00;16;24;29

actually have worked with, in some cases,

00;16;24;29 - 00;16;30;10

3 to 4 different employers doing the work

before they come into full time

00;16;30;10 - 00;16;34;15

employment, as we would classify it

in the United States or Canada.

00;16;35;05 - 00;16;39;22

So the definition of work ready, I think

has some has some good examples there.

00;16;40;03 - 00;16;43;28

The other change that's happening

is companies, as they're shifting this

00;16;43;28 - 00;16;49;08

entry level burden to the academic sector,

are increasingly prioritizing.

00;16;49;19 - 00;16;54;13

How do I keep my existing workforce,

who I've invested billions in

00;16;54;23 - 00;16;56;26

for the last decade or so?

00;16;56;26 - 00;16;59;22

How do I keep them relevant

for a changing world?

00;16;59;22 - 00;17;03;20

Because my operating model

is changing all of those human

00;17;03;20 - 00;17;07;01

and enabling skills

that that that workforce has developed

00;17;07;11 - 00;17;12;16

over the last ten, 15, 20, 30 years,

I value to me.

00;17;12;22 - 00;17;16;26

So how do I keep teaching in the new

technical skills as AI plays out,

00;17;17;01 - 00;17;21;15

as the work shifts, as new skills emerge

so that they can stay relevant?

00;17;21;21 - 00;17;26;01

So those are the two big shifts

I'm seeing as as organizations

00;17;26;01 - 00;17;30;22

and academia, the public sector, start

to adjust to this new reality.

00;17;32;01 - 00;17;33;22

With both of those answers.

00;17;33;22 - 00;17;37;23

You know, the notion of skills

is really sort of coming to the forefront.

00;17;37;23 - 00;17;41;05

And I want to I want to come back to the

to the first one

00;17;41;05 - 00;17;44;15

you said there which which is to me

the definition of work readiness.

00;17;45;00 - 00;17;46;16

Can we dig a little bit deeper into that?

00;17;46;16 - 00;17;48;25

Like what is the gap there?

00;17;48;25 - 00;17;54;29

What does work ready mean in 2026

that it is fundamentally different?

00;17;54;29 - 00;18;00;05

And what do educational institutions

need to be doing to close that gap?

00;18;00;23 - 00;18;03;23

Yeah, I think there's there's

a number of things here.

00;18;03;26 - 00;18;07;05

Educational institutions

have been really good at teaching people

00;18;07;06 - 00;18;08;28

technical skills.

00;18;08;28 - 00;18;12;24

And and I think there are so many new,

more efficient

00;18;12;24 - 00;18;16;21

and effective ways if it's purely about

teaching technical skills,

00;18;17;28 - 00;18;20;01

what has often been minimized

00;18;20;01 - 00;18;24;01

or gone unnoticed is the value

of those academic institutions

00;18;24;06 - 00;18;29;07

in teaching community, in teaching

about how we collaborate together,

00;18;29;12 - 00;18;33;15

in sharing the burden

of that productive struggle of learning.

00;18;33;16 - 00;18;35;00

Right. Because learning is difficult.

00;18;35;00 - 00;18;36;04

Learning is hard,

00;18;36;04 - 00;18;39;28

you know, but when you're doing it in

a, in a cohort, in a community

00;18;40;02 - 00;18;44;24

with the right tools and capabilities, we,

you know, it's a misery shared.

00;18;44;26 - 00;18;46;03

Right.

00;18;46;03 - 00;18;51;04

And so these academic institutions

build a community that learns how to grow

00;18;51;05 - 00;18;55;10

together, that relies on each other,

that is supportive of each other.

00;18;55;18 - 00;18;59;19

And it also starts to build those enabling

skills, right?

00;18;59;20 - 00;19;04;07

Curiosity, learning, agility,

all of those things that are required

00;19;04;07 - 00;19;07;07

for someone

to be successful going forward.

00;19;07;14 - 00;19;12;11

And so I do think the academic sector

is shifting pretty quickly.

00;19;13;26 - 00;19;15;14

You know, to sort of recognize

00;19;15;14 - 00;19;18;29

that the real value is not in teaching

someone how to become an accountant.

00;19;18;29 - 00;19;19;24

My goodness.

00;19;19;24 - 00;19;23;00

You know, there's much cheaper ways of

teaching someone to become an accountant.

00;19;23;04 - 00;19;26;13

You know, I don't need to spend,

you know, my son's going through his MBA,

00;19;26;13 - 00;19;30;00

and I think it's costing him

something like $250,000.

00;19;30;04 - 00;19;34;06

You know, this need to pay that money

for advanced mathematics

00;19;34;06 - 00;19;37;06

or, you know, advanced finance, etc.

00;19;37;11 - 00;19;39;16

but it's the community,

the learning agility,

00;19;39;16 - 00;19;43;15

the curiosity, you know,

forcing people to sort of develop

00;19;43;15 - 00;19;47;08

these broad enabling skills,

which is what's going to stand them in

00;19;47;08 - 00;19;51;11

good stead for the next 50 years

of their working life.

00;19;51;22 - 00;19;55;12

So some of the skills that I'm seeing

that are incredibly important

00;19;55;14 - 00;19;58;13

are, as I mentioned,

learning agility and curiosity.

00;19;58;16 - 00;20;03;24

The one that when I talk about work,

really, if there is one skill that

00;20;04;10 - 00;20;08;02

that employers are looking for

in this new definition of work

00;20;08;02 - 00;20;12;12

ready is does

the person have have judgment?

00;20;12;12 - 00;20;15;21

Can they express judgment

which requires them to have depth

00;20;15;21 - 00;20;19;12

in the technical skills, requires

them to have seen those skills

00;20;19;16 - 00;20;23;13

operate in different environments,

to have seen the consequences of a

00;20;23;15 - 00;20;27;07

right decision and a wrong decision,

because that's how you develop judgment.

00;20;27;14 - 00;20;29;03

It's also I'm very intrigued.

00;20;29;03 - 00;20;35;11

I think it was unsigned young that announced this, I believe a 12 month internship.

00;20;36;11 - 00;20;40;10

So actually having these people come in

and learn in their environment

00;20;40;10 - 00;20;44;10

and make all those entry level

consulting mistakes over the 12 months

00;20;44;13 - 00;20;48;11

and then going back to school

and continuing that, to me is such

00;20;48;11 - 00;20;52;26

a brilliant idea, because you teach, you

teach judgment, right?

00;20;52;26 - 00;20;56;11

That's what you people build up in

through those 12 months.

00;20;58;15 - 00;21;00;20

A phrase like teaching judgment

00;21;00;20 - 00;21;04;09

is something that is easy

for me to be like, yes, that sounds good.

00;21;04;24 - 00;21;07;24

And in practice, at scale,

00;21;08;01 - 00;21;12;13

I, I think it's a lot harder to do than

just everybody look for judgment.

00;21;12;13 - 00;21;15;06

Teach judgment

like it's to you, you to use your word.

00;21;15;06 - 00;21;18;12

It's very nuanced

and it is a very refined skill.

00;21;18;27 - 00;21;20;18

And I'm coming back to that word skill

00;21;20;18 - 00;21;24;07

because we've talked about skills

being developed in academia,

00;21;24;14 - 00;21;30;00

but you've also written extensively about,

you know, skills powered organizations.

00;21;30;19 - 00;21;31;28

What does that mean?

00;21;31;28 - 00;21;36;20

How do you actually build an organization

that can do this at any sort of scale?

00;21;36;20 - 00;21;39;02

What does that look like? Yeah.

00;21;39;02 - 00;21;41;20

So let me let me ask you,

give you a real life example.

00;21;41;20 - 00;21;46;07

And this is that that book you referenced,

which came out in October of 24,

00;21;46;13 - 00;21;48;17

was written with a woman

who is now the chief

00;21;48;17 - 00;21;52;10

operating officer of Standard

Chartered Bank and tonnage.

00;21;52;10 - 00;21;57;07

And I worked together over a four year

period where Standard Chartered generated

00;21;57;07 - 00;22;02;22

a total shareholder return of 332%,

one of the highest performing

00;22;02;22 - 00;22;06;21

financial services,

if not organizations, on the planet.

00;22;06;28 - 00;22;10;17

And they would say that

at the heart of their transformation

00;22;10;27 - 00;22;13;27

was this journey

to becoming a skills powered organization.

00;22;13;28 - 00;22;17;07

And that journey

had three three legs to the stool.

00;22;17;09 - 00;22;20;10

But more importantly,

it started with one number.

00;22;20;22 - 00;22;24;01

And that number is to my earlier point

about companies

00;22;24;01 - 00;22;28;07

focusing their efforts

on keeping the existing workforce relevant

00;22;28;17 - 00;22;32;15

when when companies typically transform

what has traditionally happened.

00;22;32;15 - 00;22;37;20

Jeff, as you know well, is

there is this restructuring or reduction

00;22;37;20 - 00;22;41;23

in force where talent with legacy

skills are,

00;22;42;15 - 00;22;46;09

you know, are are are eliminated.

00;22;46;17 - 00;22;49;17

People are sort of rendered redundant,

00;22;50;04 - 00;22;52;23

and then talent with new skills.

00;22;52;23 - 00;22;55;04

You know, Hyde into the organization.

00;22;55;04 - 00;22;58;04

That is a very expensive,

disruptive proposition.

00;22;58;11 - 00;23;02;12

What tonnage showed their board

was that instead of doing that,

00;23;02;26 - 00;23;08;10

that they could actually save

50,000 pounds per employee by reskilling

00;23;08;11 - 00;23;11;22

talent from their sunset roles

to their sunrise roles,

00;23;12;20 - 00;23;15;14

that was the impetus

for their transformation

00;23;15;14 - 00;23;19;25

that then triggered this three legged,

three phase journey, if you will.

00;23;20;05 - 00;23;21;12

The first was to say,

00;23;21;12 - 00;23;26;07

if we're going to reskill people,

how do we make upskilling and reskilling?

00;23;26;07 - 00;23;30;20

How do we make learning

a habit of the organization not something

00;23;30;20 - 00;23;35;07

that Jeff Des on a Saturday night

when the kids are in bed at 10:00,

00;23;35;15 - 00;23;38;05

not something that Robin does

when he's on holiday

00;23;38;05 - 00;23;41;13

because he has no other time

to, you know, acquire new skills,

00;23;41;15 - 00;23;44;19

but something that is a part

of how we run our business.

00;23;45;02 - 00;23;48;25

So that included

expanding the number of learning days

00;23;48;25 - 00;23;52;02

that they have that included

in their strategic plan,

00;23;52;03 - 00;23;55;29

being really explicit

about how investments in learning

00;23;55;29 - 00;23;59;04

were going to drive

the development of new skills

00;23;59;04 - 00;24;02;06

and new capabilities for the organization.

00;24;02;08 - 00;24;03;11

That was phase one.

00;24;03;11 - 00;24;08;03

So this this consistent messaging

and as an as an anecdote, it

00;24;08;08 - 00;24;11;06

it is I've participated in these sessions.

00;24;11;06 - 00;24;12;21

They have learning week.

00;24;12;21 - 00;24;17;03

They've gone from 20 hours mandatory

learning a year to 120.

00;24;17;10 - 00;24;20;21

They have learning week

where everyone from

00;24;20;26 - 00;24;23;26

Bill winters, the CEO down to the tellers

00;24;23;28 - 00;24;28;05

actually take time out to participate

in, you know, and I've heard

00;24;28;05 - 00;24;31;23

from some of the tellers, my gosh,

I was in the same call as Bill was.

00;24;32;01 - 00;24;34;29

And he's letting the same stuff

that I'm learning,

00;24;34;29 - 00;24;38;13

which is, as you might imagine,

incredibly motivating for people.

00;24;38;18 - 00;24;39;27

That's phase one of the journey.

00;24;39;27 - 00;24;44;05

Phase two was to say, how do we make this

tangible and economically

00;24;44;20 - 00;24;46;22

and delivering an economic return?

00;24;46;22 - 00;24;50;12

So they identified some high

priority roles where that reskilling

00;24;50;12 - 00;24;54;08

would happen from the sunset

to the sunrise roles specifically

00;24;54;15 - 00;24;58;14

taking tellers out of a shrinking

branch network and reskilling them

00;24;58;14 - 00;25;02;22

into becoming relationship managers

in their high net worth businesses.

00;25;03;06 - 00;25;06;20

The enabling skills,

communication, empathy,

00;25;06;25 - 00;25;09;26

care for the customer

were entirely consistent.

00;25;10;02 - 00;25;13;20

What they were spending their reskilling

dollars in time

00;25;13;20 - 00;25;15;25

on was in the technical skills.

00;25;15;25 - 00;25;18;23

Does that person understand

the product portfolio?

00;25;18;23 - 00;25;19;07

Do that?

00;25;19;07 - 00;25;21;28

Can we teach them some basic

financial analysis

00;25;21;28 - 00;25;25;14

so they can actually help the customer

navigate that portfolio

00;25;25;17 - 00;25;28;18

and understand the risks

and the return available to them?

00;25;29;03 - 00;25;33;17

The other priority role was in tech

operations, reskilling people

00;25;33;17 - 00;25;37;10

from cloud administration

into AI development.

00;25;37;29 - 00;25;41;26

The core skills of understanding

the company's tech architecture,

00;25;42;02 - 00;25;45;21

understanding how the different

customer bases internal customers

00;25;45;21 - 00;25;49;20

engaged with the platform

and their data needs were all the same.

00;25;49;27 - 00;25;52;04

They were teaching the technical skills,

00;25;52;04 - 00;25;54;27

and then the last

part of the journey was around, how

00;25;54;27 - 00;25;58;21

do we ensure that this is not an event,

that this is sustainable?

00;25;58;27 - 00;26;02;03

So how do we make sure

that all of our core processes

00;26;02;09 - 00;26;06;06

actually have skills

as part of the currency, from strategic

00;26;06;06 - 00;26;10;11

planning to workforce development

to budgeting and accounting?

00;26;10;16 - 00;26;14;17

How do we make sure that skills

as the currency for work,

00;26;14;17 - 00;26;17;23

for how people are deployed,

how resources are managed,

00;26;18;01 - 00;26;21;06

are a part of our lexicon

and how we run this business.

00;26;23;01 - 00;26;24;08

I really like that approach.

00;26;24;08 - 00;26;25;11

I really like the model.

00;26;25;11 - 00;26;29;21

It resonates very deeply with me

and in terms of my beliefs around,

00;26;30;02 - 00;26;32;21

you know, adaptability, reskilling,

00;26;32;21 - 00;26;37;06

the core skills that are important

for folks.

00;26;37;11 - 00;26;41;03

Let's, so abstractly,

I'm completely bought into that.

00;26;41;04 - 00;26;45;17

Let's get like really nitty gritty,

hands dirty with this stuff though.

00;26;45;17 - 00;26;49;00

So if you want to do that, if you're

leading an organization or a function,

00;26;49;00 - 00;26;52;27

you say, yes, I'm

all in on on learning, on skills.

00;26;52;29 - 00;26;54;20

I want to do this.

00;26;54;20 - 00;26;57;02

How how do you actually execute that?

00;26;57;02 - 00;27;00;22

Do you need a specific,

you know, learning centric team?

00;27;00;23 - 00;27;02;11

Do you ask HR to do it?

00;27;02;11 - 00;27;05;02

Is it up to like the land, the

00;27;05;02 - 00;27;09;01

is it up to the line managers or,

you know, in your example folks in it,

00;27;09;12 - 00;27;13;10

do you bring in consultants or trainers

in some capacity?

00;27;13;22 - 00;27;16;29

How do you actually implement this

in your organization?

00;27;17;11 - 00;27;20;23

So I think there's

I think of it as a three plus three.

00;27;20;24 - 00;27;21;25

Jeff.

00;27;21;25 - 00;27;25;28

So the three plus three is

what are the core capabilities that you as

00;27;25;28 - 00;27;31;04

an organization need to have to be that AI

driven, skills powered organization?

00;27;31;10 - 00;27;34;19

And then the other three is

how do you get started?

00;27;34;23 - 00;27;37;11

So the first three,

the three core capabilities

00;27;37;11 - 00;27;40;26

that we explored in the Sales Cloud

Organization book were

00;27;41;04 - 00;27;45;22

this notion of what design do

I understand how the demand

00;27;45;22 - 00;27;49;23

for my work, the demand from my customers,

the changing external environment?

00;27;49;28 - 00;27;53;10

Do I understand how the demand for work

and thus the skills

00;27;53;14 - 00;27;56;14

human or machine arch is changing?

00;27;56;17 - 00;28;00;05

And then do I understand

how the supply of skills again

00;28;00;07 - 00;28;04;19

human or machine humans could be either

employees, gig workers,

00;28;04;25 - 00;28;08;28

global capability centers, outsources,

alliance partners, etc.

00;28;09;22 - 00;28;13;27

and then meshing the two together

in the redesign of work

00;28;13;29 - 00;28;19;22

to ensure an optimal combination

based on cost, capability, risk, etc..

00;28;19;23 - 00;28;23;06

So this understanding of the design

of work, demand of skills

00;28;23;06 - 00;28;24;17

and supply of skills.

00;28;24;17 - 00;28;27;15

Secondly, when I do that,

I see gaps, right?

00;28;27;15 - 00;28;31;20

I see where the demand is over here

and the supply is over here.

00;28;32;01 - 00;28;35;10

Can I make development of of

00;28;35;13 - 00;28;39;20

of of skills, the closing of those gaps

and organizational capability?

00;28;39;21 - 00;28;43;23

Can I make that rapid upskilling

and reskilling

00;28;44;02 - 00;28;50;05

of of of the workforce and machine skills

as well a core capability.

00;28;50;12 - 00;28;52;18

And can I do it at scale and speed.

00;28;52;18 - 00;28;54;11

That's the second capability.

00;28;54;11 - 00;28;57;13

And then the third capability is

because we're not just developing skills

00;28;57;13 - 00;28;59;24

because it's a nice thing

and it's a good thing.

00;28;59;24 - 00;29;02;14

It has to be deployed

back to productive work.

00;29;02;14 - 00;29;05;13

So can I deploy those skills

as they developed,

00;29;05;13 - 00;29;09;07

whether it's machine skills, human skills,

back to productive work

00;29;09;08 - 00;29;13;17

as quickly as possible, back

to where those gaps were first observed.

00;29;13;21 - 00;29;17;26

And that could be, you know,

upskilling someone in an existing job

00;29;17;28 - 00;29;21;07

could be upskilling

or reskilling someone for a different job.

00;29;21;15 - 00;29;25;12

It could be through an internal

gig marketplace.

00;29;25;22 - 00;29;28;20

It could be through a more agile

talent pool

00;29;28;20 - 00;29;33;14

that, instead of being stuck in jobs,

is now flowing to where the demand is.

00;29;33;19 - 00;29;36;25

And that's the other big shift

that we're seeing, Jeff, is companies

00;29;36;25 - 00;29;40;13

moving away from you know,

when I think of my employees,

00;29;41;04 - 00;29;44;04

you know, an employee is synonymous

with someone in a job

00;29;44;06 - 00;29;48;04

to actually recognizing that there are now

not just that fixed model,

00;29;48;05 - 00;29;52;20

but more flexible models

and flow models of work that allow me

00;29;52;20 - 00;29;56;28

to create much higher velocity

in how work work gets done

00;29;56;28 - 00;30;00;25

and how people get signals

as to how they need to develop new skills.

00;30;01;10 - 00;30;04;15

So those three capabilities of work

design, skills

00;30;04;15 - 00;30;08;00

development and skills

deployment would be the first three.

00;30;08;08 - 00;30;11;08

The next three is

how do I get started quickly?

00;30;12;00 - 00;30;16;01

It's really important

that there is a North Star that hankered.

00;30;16;03 - 00;30;20;04

This journey of becoming AI driven

and skills powered, a North Star

00;30;20;04 - 00;30;24;03

that says over the next three years, pick

a time frame.

00;30;24;10 - 00;30;27;10

Here is the economic impact

of this transformation.

00;30;27;17 - 00;30;28;25

Here's what this transformation

00;30;28;25 - 00;30;31;27

is going to look like to my customers

and my shareholders.

00;30;32;02 - 00;30;36;06

Here's what it's going to feel like

to my leaders, my managers and employees.

00;30;36;20 - 00;30;41;00

And here are the core foundational

elements that we absolutely have to nail

00;30;41;07 - 00;30;45;16

to make sure this transformation

actually, delivers.

00;30;45;22 - 00;30;48;29

You know, it could be

we have the right AI stack.

00;30;49;02 - 00;30;51;17

It could be

we have the right skills taxonomy.

00;30;51;17 - 00;30;53;15

We have an internal talent marketplace.

00;30;53;15 - 00;30;56;15

There's multiple key

foundational elements.

00;30;56;18 - 00;31;01;03

Secondly, just like Standard Chartered

Bank, these things can be incredibly

00;31;01;22 - 00;31;06;23

can be can become very theoretical

unless they deliver quick results.

00;31;07;00 - 00;31;12;07

And that's why I think piloting in narrow

areas is really important.

00;31;12;07 - 00;31;17;10

So Standard Chartered Bank going deep

and focused with the relationship managers

00;31;17;16 - 00;31;21;01

and going deep and focused

with the tech operations folks,

00;31;21;06 - 00;31;25;24

delivered quick results in six months,

real economic ROI,

00;31;26;06 - 00;31;28;26

which then brought the rest

of the organization along.

00;31;28;26 - 00;31;34;11

Because if this is about generating your

usual three 3% increases in efficiency,

00;31;34;17 - 00;31;38;15

you can do that in annual headcount

reductions that companies go through.

00;31;38;23 - 00;31;42;14

The gains that we're seeing,

and I've written extensively about this,

00;31;42;22 - 00;31;47;04

are not 3%, but 30 to 40%

capacity release,

00;31;47;09 - 00;31;50;06

25% productivity increases

00;31;50;06 - 00;31;54;05

because of that bending of the demand

curve that I talked about.

00;31;54;23 - 00;31;57;10

And then the third dimension,

very similar to the Standard

00;31;57;10 - 00;32;01;10

Chartered Bank, is how do we make sure

that this is not an event, that

00;32;01;10 - 00;32;05;03

this is a transformation

that continues into perpetuity

00;32;05;08 - 00;32;11;11

by building in skills and AI into

how we run every facet of this business?

00;32;13;23 - 00;32;15;17

It's not helpful.

00;32;15;17 - 00;32;17;29

It is. And it makes sense to me.

00;32;17;29 - 00;32;22;04

I want to talk in just a minute about

the notion of this as a transformation.

00;32;22;04 - 00;32;25;11

But just before I do,

all of that made sense to me.

00;32;25;26 - 00;32;30;07

I want to come back and just kind of

hammer on the specific question

00;32;30;19 - 00;32;34;06

that I was trying to learn more about,

which is if you're actually going to do

00;32;34;06 - 00;32;38;08

this transformation,

who in the organization needs to own it,

00;32;38;08 - 00;32;42;14

and who do you need executing it for it

to be successful? Yep.

00;32;42;20 - 00;32;46;06

So I think it has to be owned by

00;32;47;08 - 00;32;49;20

three three critical stakeholders.

00;32;49;20 - 00;32;54;11

You have to have the business leaders

actually initiate this

00;32;54;15 - 00;32;57;25

with a clear understanding that it's

going to deliver an economic return.

00;32;58;09 - 00;33;03;24

You have to have your line managers

be the ones who actively manage it

00;33;03;24 - 00;33;07;04

in a day to day basis,

because they're the bridge between

00;33;07;19 - 00;33;09;04

what the customer is looking for,

00;33;09;04 - 00;33;12;04

what leadership is looking for,

and what actually gets delivered.

00;33;12;09 - 00;33;16;29

But perhaps the most important stakeholder

is who's actually doing the work.

00;33;17;06 - 00;33;20;24

Too many transformations,

particularly digital transformations, tend

00;33;20;24 - 00;33;24;23

to be top down initiatives

that are disconnected from how the day

00;33;24;23 - 00;33;26;04

to day operates.

00;33;26;04 - 00;33;29;18

You know, it's it's transform

versus perform.

00;33;29;29 - 00;33;31;26

It has to be connected to the performer.

00;33;31;26 - 00;33;35;12

And nobody knows the perform better

than the people actually doing the work.

00;33;35;23 - 00;33;40;27

And so I always say to my clients,

the organization that I advise the people

00;33;40;27 - 00;33;45;29

doing the work absolutely have to be

in the sausage making gear, right?

00;33;46;05 - 00;33;49;16

Because as you might have the most

well documented

00;33;49;16 - 00;33;52;22

processes, you might be a Lean Six

Sigma organization.

00;33;53;04 - 00;33;54;11

That's all great.

00;33;54;11 - 00;33;57;12

The person actually executing knows where

all the bodies are,

00;33;57;23 - 00;34;02;05

they know where stuff gets wrong

and they need to be involved.

00;34;02;17 - 00;34;04;06

They need to have an incentive

00;34;04;06 - 00;34;08;04

to actually participate,

and they need to have the opportunity,

00;34;09;07 - 00;34;10;02

to, to

00;34;10;02 - 00;34;14;26

to make a difference and an opportunity

to stay relevant as the work is changing,

00;34;14;26 - 00;34;17;28

whether that's staying

upskilling for the job that they're in

00;34;17;28 - 00;34;21;05

today,

being rescaled for something different,

00;34;21;09 - 00;34;26;15

or if the business model is changing

so dramatically, how do we out skill them?

00;34;26;19 - 00;34;30;29

How do we ensure that we're not doing

the traditional reduction in force,

00;34;30;29 - 00;34;34;16

where I give you a check

and a phone number to actually saying

00;34;34;22 - 00;34;39;03

my promise to you is that I will keep you

relevant and ready for opportunity.

00;34;39;03 - 00;34;43;13

So I'm scaling means I'm going to find you

an opportunity.

00;34;43;20 - 00;34;46;04

I'm going to make sure

that your skills are relevant,

00;34;46;04 - 00;34;49;04

and I'm going to help

you get placed in that opportunity.

00;34;49;09 - 00;34;52;03

I've got a number of clients

that actually do that now,

00;34;52;03 - 00;34;56;28

because it's an extension of their mission

and purpose that my obligation to you

00;34;56;28 - 00;34;59;08

is not just as long as you're an employee,

00;34;59;08 - 00;35;01;26

but it's to get

you ready for post employment.

00;35;03;06 - 00;35;04;16

It's a really nice sentiment.

00;35;04;16 - 00;35;08;06

I'm like, I'm excited to hear that

people are actually doing that in practice

00;35;08;06 - 00;35;11;21

because it's I could see

it being written off by organizations.

00;35;11;21 - 00;35;13;04

So it's giving. You one. Actually.

00;35;13;04 - 00;35;15;00

Let me give you a real life

example. Right.

00;35;15;00 - 00;35;16;04

Unilever

00;35;16;04 - 00;35;20;09

Unilever has always held itself out

as being a company of mission and purpose.

00;35;20;14 - 00;35;25;15

And it goes back to when Alan Job was CEO

and Lena and I was roll.

00;35;26;03 - 00;35;29;29

I the privilege of working with them

on their framework for the future of work

00;35;30;04 - 00;35;34;13

that explicitly

had those three types of reskilling,

00;35;34;13 - 00;35;38;16

if you will, the upskilling for the job

I'm in today, reskilling for something

00;35;38;16 - 00;35;42;00

different within the company,

or the opportunity to move beyond.

00;35;42;14 - 00;35;47;12

A number of years back, this was really put to the test and they came through with,

00;35;48;21 - 00;35;51;05

with bright shining colors.

00;35;51;05 - 00;35;54;16

One of their factories in Germany

had reached its end of life,

00;35;54;16 - 00;35;56;01

I think, a 50 year life.

00;35;56;01 - 00;35;59;09

And they had made the commitment,

you know, as a company of purpose

00;35;59;09 - 00;36;02;16

might do

to not just lay waste to this factory.

00;36;02;16 - 00;36;07;07

And, they actually made the commitment

to turning it into a recycling plant.

00;36;07;29 - 00;36;09;23

But it didn't just end there. Right?

00;36;09;23 - 00;36;13;21

So my, the the sense of mission

to the environment, the sense of mission

00;36;13;21 - 00;36;18;24

to the community, 80% of the people

who worked in the previous plant

00;36;19;14 - 00;36;22;14

found employment in the recycling plant,

00;36;22;19 - 00;36;27;20

so they reskill them for the jobs

that the recycling plant was looking for.

00;36;27;29 - 00;36;32;03

The others chose, you know, retirement,

chose to move on to something different.

00;36;32;07 - 00;36;36;04

But 80% of the workforce in that old plant

00;36;36;29 - 00;36;39;10

were employed by the recycling plant.

00;36;39;10 - 00;36;41;16

That, to me, was the proof in the pudding.

00;36;43;05 - 00;36;46;23

It's a it's a really cool story,

and I'm sort of smiling to myself

00;36;46;23 - 00;36;50;19

because I feel like recycling

is an apt metaphor for a lot of what

00;36;50;19 - 00;36;51;28

we're, we're describing.

00;36;51;28 - 00;36;55;07

So it's amusing

that it's actually a recycling plant.

00;36;55;15 - 00;36;58;27

Let's, let's talk

though about digital transformation,

00;36;59;14 - 00;37;02;16

which, you know, functionally,

this is its transformation.

00;37;02;18 - 00;37;04;24

Probably if you're doing it in,

00;37;04;24 - 00;37;07;28

you know, this year, it's there's

some digital component to it as well.

00;37;08;16 - 00;37;12;09

You know, transformations are just

they're absolutely notorious

00;37;12;15 - 00;37;13;17

for their failure rate.

00;37;13;17 - 00;37;14;24

And there's been a lot of literature

00;37;14;24 - 00;37;19;07

over a lot of years just and we can debate

exactly what the failure rate is.

00;37;19;07 - 00;37;22;07

But it is exceptionally high.

00;37;22;21 - 00;37;24;09

Is this starting to change?

00;37;24;09 - 00;37;27;01

Are you seeing organizations

get better at this?

00;37;27;01 - 00;37;31;28

And, you know, maybe more broadly,

why why are they failing to begin with?

00;37;32;22 - 00;37;36;10

I would actually say, and not to be

too difficult about this, Jeff.

00;37;36;14 - 00;37;39;14

I actually think the failure rate

has increased.

00;37;39;17 - 00;37;42;21

And and and and it's increased

for a couple of reasons.

00;37;42;21 - 00;37;46;18

One is the velocity

with which transformations now

00;37;46;18 - 00;37;50;13

need to deliver a much, much greater.

00;37;50;17 - 00;37;53;08

You know, I, I'm a 35 year consultant.

00;37;53;08 - 00;37;57;17

I was doing BPR at Accenture

back in the early 90s

00;37;57;22 - 00;38;01;08

when that was all the rage

and so had a front row seat

00;38;01;14 - 00;38;05;03

to transformation, albeit

in a very different age.

00;38;05;09 - 00;38;08;08

When you think of the velocity

and volatility of change,

00;38;09;18 - 00;38;10;08

the velocity

00;38;10;08 - 00;38;13;07

of change makes it really difficult.

00;38;13;07 - 00;38;16;12

The second is the volatility

of the external environment.

00;38;16;13 - 00;38;19;13

You know, the world's

always been a complicated place.

00;38;19;19 - 00;38;23;16

We are in probably the most complex

period of human history.

00;38;24;14 - 00;38;26;29

Which, which actually deserves,

you know, some,

00;38;26;29 - 00;38;31;05

some recognition with it's

not just the speed of AI,

00;38;31;08 - 00;38;35;18

but it's the, the,

the global conflicts around us.

00;38;35;18 - 00;38;37;15

It's the climate crisis.

00;38;37;15 - 00;38;40;26

It's the demographic crisis

in certain parts of the world.

00;38;41;21 - 00;38;45;05

You know,

there are these all of these crises,

00;38;45;05 - 00;38;49;15

if you will, act as multipliers

on, on each other, as we know.

00;38;49;15 - 00;38;53;24

And so the velocity and volatility

of change I have accelerated,

00;38;54;06 - 00;38;57;01

which makes the risks of transformation

much greater.

00;38;57;01 - 00;39;03;08

But I think even more than that

is seeing so many organizations continue

00;39;03;08 - 00;39;06;08

to perpetuate the same mindset, skill set

00;39;06;08 - 00;39;09;22

and toolset to driving transformation.

00;39;10;22 - 00;39;12;03

You know, that to me,

00;39;12;03 - 00;39;16;21

adds yet another obstacle to the success

rate of digital transformations.

00;39;17;05 - 00;39;18;20

It's a bit bleak.

00;39;18;20 - 00;39;21;04

I absolutely believe you.

00;39;21;04 - 00;39;24;23

But it's a you know,

I think I think a lot of leaders

00;39;25;03 - 00;39;27;11

feel this very deeply and very viscerally.

00;39;27;11 - 00;39;27;25

Right?

00;39;27;25 - 00;39;31;10

You're

you're verbalizing something that I think

00;39;31;10 - 00;39;35;01

a lot of listeners will say, yes,

that does describe how I feel.

00;39;36;00 - 00;39;38;24

And yet, for better or for worse,

00;39;38;24 - 00;39;41;24

we can't just say, well,

then no transformation than me.

00;39;41;26 - 00;39;43;21

For me then, right? I'm

just going to sit this one out.

00;39;43;21 - 00;39;44;18

Right? Yeah.

00;39;44;18 - 00;39;49;16

Because I think the reality of,

of, of this environment is transformation

00;39;49;16 - 00;39;52;16

is probably more important than ever,

even if it's harder.

00;39;52;22 - 00;39;54;03

Absolutely.

00;39;54;03 - 00;39;57;09

How do we make sure that we get it right

if we're going to start

00;39;57;09 - 00;40;00;16

and you you talked about,

you know, outlining the broader journey.

00;40;00;16 - 00;40;03;15

But if you're really committed

to this type of transformation,

00;40;03;15 - 00;40;05;18

how do you make sure

that you get it right?

00;40;05;18 - 00;40;07;16

And what do you have to do

00;40;07;16 - 00;40;10;16

to make sure you're

not another one of these failure stories?

00;40;10;20 - 00;40;11;08

Yeah.

00;40;11;08 - 00;40;16;13

So I think there are probably three things

that organizations that I've had

00;40;16;13 - 00;40;20;25

the privilege of working with,

you know, at this time, doing it right.

00;40;21;03 - 00;40;24;22

One is just absolutely pivoting

from the mindset

00;40;24;24 - 00;40;28;29

that transformation

is an event to transformation

00;40;28;29 - 00;40;32;22

actually being the start

of a journey of perpetual reinvention.

00;40;33;09 - 00;40;34;18

We are going to need to.

00;40;34;18 - 00;40;36;27

And it's not just continuous improvement.

00;40;36;27 - 00;40;38;24

It's actual reinvention.

00;40;38;24 - 00;40;42;05

How do I ensure that as we transform

00;40;42;05 - 00;40;47;07

here, we get that big gain

in, in in productivity and profitability

00;40;47;17 - 00;40;50;04

that I am creating the space

00;40;50;04 - 00;40;54;03

for radical reinvention

of what kind of going forward basis.

00;40;54;15 - 00;40;57;25

What that means is a couple of things

00;40;57;25 - 00;41;01;10

collapsing the run transform cycle. So

00;41;02;12 - 00;41;05;11

mentally, you know practically

00;41;05;11 - 00;41;09;04

that line leaders, managers and employees

fully understand

00;41;09;07 - 00;41;13;07

that in the flow of work,

we need to actively be

00;41;13;07 - 00;41;16;24

looking for opportunities

to reinvent radically and quickly.

00;41;16;24 - 00;41;20;26

It's one of the reasons

why my fourth book, Worked Without Jobs,

00;41;20;27 - 00;41;23;27

was focused on a new work operating system

00;41;24;08 - 00;41;28;24

that is geared to sort of enable

organizations to actually make

00;41;28;24 - 00;41;32;16

that perpetual reinvention

part of their core operating processes.

00;41;33;09 - 00;41;38;11

The other key requirement,

I think, is that we explicitly account for

00;41;38;14 - 00;41;42;04

and build in space for learning and space

00;41;42;04 - 00;41;45;04

for wellbeing in the flow of work.

00;41;45;10 - 00;41;47;29

So you know practically what that means

00;41;47;29 - 00;41;51;27

for a number of organizations I work with

is not redesigning every job

00;41;52;00 - 00;41;56;20

to 100% of every waking moment

that we're going to explicitly set aside

00;41;56;22 - 00;41;59;21

time for learning, upskilling, reskilling,

00;42;00;11 - 00;42;03;01

time for wellbeing in the flow of work.

00;42;03;01 - 00;42;06;29

Because the sheer intensity of the

that period

00;42;06;29 - 00;42;10;20

that we're in requires

the opportunity for a reset.

00;42;10;22 - 00;42;15;04

Because as we all know, the,

the the burnout rates

00;42;15;04 - 00;42;18;18

have shot through the roof

in most organizations,

00;42;19;14 - 00;42;22;29

the level of disengagement

have shot through the roof.

00;42;23;11 - 00;42;28;17

You know, in many organizations,

and so actually building in space

00;42;28;17 - 00;42;32;13

for learning and wellbeing

in the flow of work, I think is essential.

00;42;34;21 - 00;42;37;04

I subscribe to that belief as well.

00;42;37;04 - 00;42;40;04

Now, I can hear already

00;42;40;11 - 00;42;44;14

leaders saying,

so we need to move faster than ever.

00;42;44;14 - 00;42;48;04

And the solution you're proposing

is for us to slow down, right?

00;42;48;09 - 00;42;51;11

You you can frame it somewhat

cynically as that. Yes.

00;42;51;14 - 00;42;54;23

How would you respond to that criticism?

00;42;55;23 - 00;42;58;23

I would say the yes.

00;42;59;12 - 00;43;01;21

I would say it's going fast

00;43;01;21 - 00;43;04;21

and going slow at the same time.

00;43;04;22 - 00;43;09;04

I think what you need is for people

to have that mindset, skill set

00;43;09;04 - 00;43;13;03

and toolset to continuously challenging

and reinventing the work,

00;43;13;06 - 00;43;17;05

but actually having the space

to think about it, the space

00;43;17;05 - 00;43;22;13

to plan for it, the space to actually be

to have the energy, the energy

00;43;22;28 - 00;43;26;07

to actually go through that continuous

reinvention and challenging.

00;43;26;11 - 00;43;30;25

The good news, I think, Jeff, is that,

as I said, you know, early on,

00;43;31;04 - 00;43;34;26

the AI powered transformations

don't yield 3

00;43;34;26 - 00;43;38;06

or 4% that we need to keep generating

every single year.

00;43;38;14 - 00;43;44;24

They get you a sizable dividend,

they get you 40 to 50% capacity release.

00;43;44;26 - 00;43;49;11

So they get you that big bump

that allows you then to that

00;43;49;11 - 00;43;52;15

maybe allows you, maybe challenges

you with the hard question

00;43;52;16 - 00;43;56;02

of how do I share the dividend

from that bump?

00;43;56;16 - 00;43;57;06

And I,

00;43;57;06 - 00;44;01;25

as I said to one of my clients, you know,

we freed up 50% of your labor capacity.

00;44;02;05 - 00;44;05;17

You've got three non

mutually exclusive choices.

00;44;06;02 - 00;44;07;26

You could take all of it as margin.

00;44;08;28 - 00;44;12;03

You could

take it as an opportunity to reset

00;44;12;07 - 00;44;16;17

what is a pretty dire work environment

with a 40% turnover

00;44;16;17 - 00;44;20;11

rate, by designing in space for learning

and well-being in the flow of work.

00;44;20;11 - 00;44;24;22

So people actually want to stay

and they actually want to keep reinventing

00;44;24;22 - 00;44;28;29

the work going forward, and they actually

have the resources to keep reinventing.

00;44;29;11 - 00;44;34;17

And or we could redeploy some of the gains

so that we are improving

00;44;34;17 - 00;44;38;01

what is almost an equally dire

customer experience.

00;44;38;07 - 00;44;41;06

So that where retaining

our best customers, where

00;44;41;06 - 00;44;42;29

deepening our share of wallet.

00;44;42;29 - 00;44;44;18

And the CEO, to his credit,

00;44;44;18 - 00;44;47;18

said, I think I'll have a little bit

of all three, please.

00;44;48;14 - 00;44;51;16

And that's actually what they did,

you know, freeing up

00;44;51;16 - 00;44;55;11

their most senior people to improve

the customer onboarding experience

00;44;55;14 - 00;44;59;22

and work with the customers

on deepening their relationships,

00;45;00;08 - 00;45;04;08

freeing up some of the analytical folks

from doing data entry with a new,

00;45;06;06 - 00;45;07;07

AI platform with

00;45;07;07 - 00;45;10;13

computer vision

to actually now do the analysis

00;45;10;23 - 00;45;14;15

and then getting a leaders, managers

and employees

00;45;14;15 - 00;45;18;14

the space to keep challenging

the existing environment.

00;45;18;22 - 00;45;25;04

5% of time every week was a specific

stand up to say, great week.

00;45;25;04 - 00;45;26;03

What did we learn?

00;45;26;03 - 00;45;27;26

What are the opportunities we're seeing

00;45;27;26 - 00;45;31;22

that we need to start putting the building

blocks in place to retool?

00;45;31;22 - 00;45;35;12

Whether it's a week from now,

three months from now, a year from now,

00;45;36;01 - 00;45;39;06

so that we aren't just staying static

and we're not just looking

00;45;39;06 - 00;45;43;02

for continuous improvement, but

we're looking for exponential improvement.

00;45;44;18 - 00;45;47;18

And when we talk about

exponential improvement,

00;45;48;03 - 00;45;52;05

it really feels like

AI is the game changer here.

00;45;52;05 - 00;45;56;16

That just unlocks these opportunities

that haven't been available to us

00;45;56;25 - 00;45;57;28

historically.

00;45;57;28 - 00;46;02;01

Now the challenge with that is,

you know, AI is a new technology.

00;46;02;05 - 00;46;02;28

It's something

00;46;02;28 - 00;46;05;28

that's not inherently understood

by everybody in the organization.

00;46;05;28 - 00;46;09;00

And, you know, in my view, at least it

00;46;09;04 - 00;46;12;02

necessitates bringing it

00;46;12;02 - 00;46;15;19

or the enterprise technology

team into the conversation in some way.

00;46;15;25 - 00;46;18;24

When we think about reskilling,

when we think about how people

00;46;18;24 - 00;46;21;07

are being deployed or organized on

you think of that traditionally more of

00;46;21;07 - 00;46;22;18

sort of a, I guess, an HR,

00;46;23;20 - 00;46;24;08

function.

00;46;24;08 - 00;46;27;01

And these two functions, IT and HR,

00;46;27;01 - 00;46;30;08

you don't you don't typically

have them doing a lot of at least

00;46;30;08 - 00;46;32;15

historically interactions together.

00;46;32;15 - 00;46;35;26

I feel like they live

in very different models

00;46;35;26 - 00;46;37;26

of the world, if I can call it that.

00;46;37;26 - 00;46;41;15

So for for this view of transformation,

00;46;41;15 - 00;46;45;00

if you're actually going to end up

in a place where you're designing

00;46;45;07 - 00;46;49;28

to free up 50% of labor capacity,

you have 40% better margin, you know,

00;46;50;05 - 00;46;53;24

order of magnitude, in your words,

exponential changes.

00;46;54;06 - 00;46;57;07

Who who has to come to the table here?

00;46;57;11 - 00;47;01;12

And how do you structure that in a way

where people are, you know, doing this

00;47;01;12 - 00;47;05;06

collaboratively, you know,

rowing in the same direction versus,

00;47;05;29 - 00;47;08;29

you know, people just showing up and not

actually knowing what role to play.

00;47;09;04 - 00;47;10;13

Yeah, absolutely.

00;47;10;13 - 00;47;13;29

And I would add, you know,

I think this is a three part

00;47;14;26 - 00;47;18;07

partnership,

if you will, Jeff, between the operation.

00;47;18;07 - 00;47;21;07

So the folks actually doing the work HR

00;47;21;23 - 00;47;24;03

who are the stewards,

as you say, of skills

00;47;24;03 - 00;47;27;04

and perhaps even the architecture of work,

and then I t

00;47;27;06 - 00;47;31;06

who are the stewards of the technology,

its deployment, etc..

00;47;31;12 - 00;47;35;01

You know, we've certainly seen

in a number of instances companies

00;47;35;01 - 00;47;40;03

like Madonna who have put it,

and HR together under Tracy Franklin.

00;47;40;09 - 00;47;44;12

I think there is a strong case

for that integrated resource management

00;47;44;12 - 00;47;50;27

view of technology, of machine capability

and human capability next to each other.

00;47;51;25 - 00;47;52;21

We've seen other

00;47;52;21 - 00;47;55;26

instances of where HR has expanded

its remit

00;47;56;01 - 00;48;00;10

to being focused on the

AI and enablement of the organization.

00;48;00;14 - 00;48;04;04

So the utilization of AI

by leaders, managers

00;48;04;04 - 00;48;07;04

and employees, etc., the redesign of work.

00;48;07;14 - 00;48;11;26

So I do I do think, though,

that the three parts of the operation,

00;48;11;27 - 00;48;15;01

HR and IT are integral

to the success of this journey.

00;48;15;03 - 00;48;18;24

Now you mentioned the Moderna example,

and that's one I've,

00;48;18;24 - 00;48;20;07

I've heard a couple of times before.

00;48;20;07 - 00;48;24;24

And it's fascinating to me

now just coming back to something

00;48;24;24 - 00;48;27;24

we were talking about earlier,

which is that

00;48;27;25 - 00;48;31;14

this is not

the future of work is not necessarily

00;48;31;14 - 00;48;35;18

as simple as, you know, add more

AI or don't add more AI.

00;48;35;19 - 00;48;38;19

It's not just like a kind

of a two dimensional spectrum,

00;48;38;19 - 00;48;42;09

but it's a whole range of options

in terms of how work actually gets done.

00;48;42;14 - 00;48;45;14

I'm curious if you've seen any creative,

00;48;45;21 - 00;48;48;22

you know, work transformations

or any configurations

00;48;48;29 - 00;48;53;17

that organizations have moved to that

aren't just, yes, we added more AI to it.

00;48;53;17 - 00;48;55;16

That's a little bit

less black and white than that.

00;48;56;19 - 00;48;57;05

Yeah.

00;48;57;05 - 00;49;02;04

So, I wrote a piece, the Sloan Management

Review, last year.

00;49;03;03 - 00;49;07;20

Of a large financial services organization

I worked with where they had,

00;49;07;27 - 00;49;13;04

you know, introduced a new agent platform

with a sort of alluded to the example

00;49;13;04 - 00;49;18;02

earlier combination of agents

with process automation, computer

00;49;18;12 - 00;49;22;10

vision for data ingestion, etc.,

and then struggle

00;49;22;11 - 00;49;26;04

to realize the full business case

for the technology platform.

00;49;26;11 - 00;49;27;26

And what was missing

00;49;27;26 - 00;49;32;00

was so it had deployed

the technology platform with the business.

00;49;32;05 - 00;49;36;14

What was missing

was HR role in helping the blind leaders,

00;49;36;14 - 00;49;42;01

and IT redesign the work for where

the technology would substitute

00;49;42;04 - 00;49;45;18

some of the human labor,

where the technology would augment

00;49;45;18 - 00;49;50;09

the experience of people there, and where

the technology would radically transform

00;49;50;15 - 00;49;53;16

the customer experience

or the work of the employees.

00;49;53;20 - 00;49;58;10

And when they did that, that's

where not only did they realize

00;49;58;10 - 00;50;01;29

the business case in terms of the ROI

that was expected,

00;50;02;05 - 00;50;05;05

they actually went three times

beyond that,

00;50;05;17 - 00;50;09;01

because what it allowed them to do

was to recognize

00;50;09;01 - 00;50;12;24

that not only are we optimizing

for the humans versus machines,

00;50;12;28 - 00;50;16;19

we now have an opportunity

to organize the humans in different ways.

00;50;16;23 - 00;50;20;00

We can shift some of the work

from a high cost location,

00;50;20;00 - 00;50;23;16

like the United States,

to a global capability center in India,

00;50;23;22 - 00;50;27;01

because as the work is by the technology,

00;50;27;11 - 00;50;32;08

we have capacity in that capability center

to take on that augmented work.

00;50;32;13 - 00;50;35;16

And we can now free up

the more senior level people

00;50;35;16 - 00;50;40;12

who used to be doing the work in the US

to deal with the onboarding of customers.

00;50;40;22 - 00;50;45;03

And I think that's where when

when those three entities come together,

00;50;45;07 - 00;50;49;13

you get all parts of the triangle

being complete, because otherwise

00;50;49;18 - 00;50;53;06

what you've got is often,

you know, literally and metaphorically,

00;50;53;09 - 00;50;57;17

a big gaping hole in one end

that either gets in the way

00;50;57;17 - 00;51;01;27

of realizing the base

level business case and secondly,

00;51;02;29 - 00;51;03;21

lets you

00;51;03;21 - 00;51;07;17

make makes you miss out

on the exponential opportunities that come

00;51;07;21 - 00;51;10;21

when all three perspectives

are brought together.

00;51;12;13 - 00;51;13;28

Yeah, yeah.

00;51;13;28 - 00;51;16;10

I'm just I'm just digesting all of that

because it makes

00;51;16;10 - 00;51;17;25

it makes complete sense to me.

00;51;17;25 - 00;51;20;07

And yet it's a it's still a tall order.

00;51;20;07 - 00;51;23;07

I can see how they become

self-reinforcing.

00;51;23;13 - 00;51;26;25

But again, it requires

the right level of planning and, and,

00;51;27;03 - 00;51;31;07

you know, get getting everything right

from the beginning to the end to do that.

00;51;31;07 - 00;51;32;04

So it's.

00;51;32;04 - 00;51;32;16

Yeah.

00;51;32;16 - 00;51;36;10

Well and to just, you know, I'll say,

I'll say the quiet part out loud,

00;51;36;10 - 00;51;38;23

but I have to imagine

you haven't actually said this,

00;51;38;23 - 00;51;42;16

but it seems like

there is an important role

00;51;42;16 - 00;51;46;04

for a lot of companies

at having some sort of outside support

00;51;46;20 - 00;51;50;05

with experts to do this versus

trying to do it all internally.

00;51;50;06 - 00;51;51;10

I mean, I don't know, do you buy that?

00;51;51;10 - 00;51;52;10

Can you, can you read a

00;51;52;10 - 00;51;55;02

can you read a few articles

or a book on that and do it yourself?

00;51;55;02 - 00;51;58;25

Or do most organizations traditionally

look for more outside support?

00;51;58;29 - 00;52;04;15

I think an external stimulus is always

helpful, whether that's an academic,

00;52;04;16 - 00;52;08;02

whether that's someone who's done

that elsewhere, like another executive

00;52;08;09 - 00;52;11;09

or a consulting firm or something else.

00;52;11;27 - 00;52;15;25

I because to me, the three parts

of this journey, Jeff, are

00;52;16;11 - 00;52;20;13

you need to shift the mindset,

the skill set and the tool set.

00;52;20;19 - 00;52;22;08

The tool sets the easy bit.

00;52;22;08 - 00;52;23;18

There's plenty of tech vendors

00;52;23;18 - 00;52;26;18

who will sort of sell you

their product in a heartbeat, right?

00;52;26;20 - 00;52;28;05

But that's the easy bit.

00;52;28;05 - 00;52;32;21

The shifting of the mindset and the skill

set is what is much, much harder.

00;52;32;24 - 00;52;38;22

And and the mindset often the always,

I would say, needs an external stimulus

00;52;38;22 - 00;52;42;27

to see the art of the possible,

because we're all constrained

00;52;43;02 - 00;52;48;12

by our experiences and our imagination

will only stretch so far.

00;52;48;12 - 00;52;50;17

And I personally found it really.

00;52;50;17 - 00;52;50;26

You know,

00;52;50;26 - 00;52;54;27

I think we all benefit from engaging

with people who have a different frame,

00;52;55;04 - 00;52;59;19

different industry, etc.,

because it forces us to stretch our,

00;53;00;04 - 00;53;02;22

you know, the paradigms

that have traditionally limited us.

00;53;04;22 - 00;53;05;07

It was

00;53;05;07 - 00;53;08;25

reminding me of a quote from another guest

I had on the show who said,

00;53;09;11 - 00;53;12;08

you know, you can't read the label

from inside the jar.

00;53;12;08 - 00;53;13;11

And that.

00;53;13;11 - 00;53;13;29

That's really.

00;53;13;29 - 00;53;14;21

What I thought

00;53;14;21 - 00;53;18;15

that was very illustrative of the

of the role of getting outside support.

00;53;19;04 - 00;53;22;15

As we start to wind down the conversation,

Robin, I wanted to ask, you

00;53;22;15 - 00;53;25;23

know, we've covered a lot of ground here,

lots of ideas

00;53;25;23 - 00;53;28;23

that'll keep the wheels

spinning for people.

00;53;29;00 - 00;53;31;25

What's your best advice for business

and for technology

00;53;31;25 - 00;53;34;25

leaders who say, yes,

all of this makes sense to me.

00;53;34;25 - 00;53;38;02

I want to be, you know,

building the organization of the future.

00;53;38;02 - 00;53;41;00

What's kind of your capstone advice

for them?

00;53;41;00 - 00;53;44;00

I would like to leave them with,

00;53;45;08 - 00;53;47;14

you know, with, with, with a quote

00;53;47;14 - 00;53;50;29

that has shaped

a lot of my just personal beliefs.

00;53;50;29 - 00;53;54;20

It's it's from Alvin

Toffler book Future Shock.

00;53;54;27 - 00;53;58;17

Where in it he said, you know,

the illiterate of the 21st

00;53;58;17 - 00;54;01;23

century will not be those

who can't read and write.

00;54;02;03 - 00;54;05;26

It'll be those who can't learn,

unlearn and relearn.

00;54;06;09 - 00;54;09;14

And I think we are in that perfect storm

00;54;09;25 - 00;54;14;14

of where the continuous challenging

of our frames of reference, our beliefs,

00;54;14;20 - 00;54;18;04

and then sometimes reminding ourselves

of things that we've forgotten

00;54;18;09 - 00;54;21;28

that have helped shape how we've gotten

here, that continue to be relevant.

00;54;23;15 - 00;54;24;28

I love that,

00;54;24;28 - 00;54;26;05

it's so encapsulating of what

00;54;26;05 - 00;54;28;22

we've been talking about,

and I think really just drives home

00;54;28;22 - 00;54;31;06

the importance

of the skills of the future.

00;54;31;06 - 00;54;33;11

Robin, I wanted to say such a big

thank you for joining today.

00;54;33;11 - 00;54;36;11

This has been a really interesting

and insightful conversation.

00;54;36;12 - 00;54;39;12

My pleasure Jeff, I really enjoyed it.

00;54;40;11 - 00;54;44;17

I talked to a lot of CIOs, and

everybody knows that running a successful

00;54;44;17 - 00;54;48;14

IT shop is extremely hard

and AI has only made it worse.

00;54;48;20 - 00;54;52;06

You know the drill immature processes,

a fragmented data

00;54;52;07 - 00;54;55;07

ecosystem and unlimited demand for it.

00;54;55;10 - 00;54;57;11

It all makes for an impossible job.

00;54;57;11 - 00;55;01;14

And yet nobody has invented

a unified operating system for it.

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We're literally the last function

without one until now.

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